HL Deb 22 May 1984 vol 452 cc140-2

56 p.m.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will guarantee that the freedom of action in Britain of the South African African National Congress will not be limited as a result of Mr. P. W. Botha's visit to this country.

Lord Elton

My Lords, representatives of the African National Congress are at liberty to remain in this country so long as they do not engage in unlawful or otherwise unacceptable activities.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, does not the Minister know that I am perfectly aware of that fact. and that his reply does not answer my Question? I was asking the noble Lord whether he can provide a guarantee that, following the visit next week of the South African Prime Minister, freedom for the African National Congress will remain as it is now.

Does he realise that the African National Congress—whose two major leaders, Nelson Mandela and Walter Sisulu, have been in gaol for 20 years—is the major organisation combating the policy of apartheid which has already forcibly removed between 2 million and 3 million people in South Africa?

Is the Minister aware also that one of the major objectives of Mr. Botha's visit to Europe is to persuade Western Governments to clamp down on the freedoms which the ANC now enjoys in their countries? Can the noble Lord answer my Question by giving such a guarantee?

Lord Elton

My Lords, no matter who visits this country, those who are entitled to live here will continue to be free to engage in what is lawful and acceptable. I hope that that interpretation of my Answer satisfies the noble Lord. I am not a party to the agenda for the discussions which will doubtless take place when Mr. Botha comes to this country—but I do not doubt that they will be wide-ranging.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, does the Minister realise that, whatever may be the Government's excuses for extending this invitation to Mr. Botha, a great many people in this country—both black and white—feel that their own freedom is undermined by his visit and not just that of the African National Congress? The visit is offensive to many tens of thousands of people—black and white—of this country, who abhor the doctrines of apartheid. Does the Minister not agree that Mr. Botha's visit will be non-conducive to the public good to the same extent, in the minds of many people, as that of the Libyans who were recently expelled?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the freedoms of this country are not curtailed by anybody's visit or anybody's conversations. The freedom of the world is strengthened where nations talk to each other regardless of their differences. We talk to many countries with whom we have differences as great as those which we have with South Africa. In that light, this visit should not he seen as offensive, even to those who find the policies of other governments offensive.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, while the Minister is not a party to the agenda, will he confirm on behalf of the Government that the policies of apartheid are repellent and abhorrent to this country, and that that will be made plain to Mr. Botha during his visit?

Lord Elton

My Lords, it will be very difficult for him to avoid drawing that conclusion.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the Minister aware that his answer to a previous supplementary question was not quite to the point? Is there not a difference between receiving the Prime minister, who is the apotheosis of the policy of apartheid, and dealing with a Foreign Minister, say, in the course of normal diplomatic relations? I believe that this is the first occasion since the war when General Smuts was Prime Minister of South Africa that a South African Prime Minister has been received in Downing Street.

Can the Minister further tell the House—or can he assure me—that he will draw to the notice of his right honourable friend the Prime Minister the desire of many people in this country that the visit should be used, as it has been arranged, for the Prime Minister of this country not only to express abhorrence of apartheid but also to bring pressure to bear on Mr. Botha to release the two leaders of the ANC who have been incarcerated for more than 20 years?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the noble Lord should not be encouraged to read too much into the lack of precedent or otherwise of this visit. That is the only response I can give to that point. I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to the noble Lord's words. It will he for her to decide how to handle her own agenda.

Lord Oram

My Lords, when the Minister uses the phrase "lawful and acceptable" in respect of the ANC's activities, can he explain to whom they should be lawful and acceptable? Who is to judge what is "acceptable"? Is the noble Lord aware, for instance, that there is planned a mass demonstration by the anti-apartheid movement against Mr. Botha's visit? Would it be acceptable for representatives of the ANC to take part in that demonstration? Who is to judge?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I am not certain that I have clear in my mind the substantive but hypothetical question that the noble Lord asked about future events, but the general answer to his question is that they should be acceptable in terms of the national interest and the interests of ordinary freedom-loving people.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that, so far as I am concerned, if they hold up the traffic on its way to the Palace of Westminster their mass demonstration will be totally unacceptable?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I anticipated the noble Earl's question in view of the fact that I have twice been called to this Dispatch Box to defend demonstrations in which I had no personal interest but which had interfered with the noble Earl's access. I do hope that they choose a suitable route.