HL Deb 15 May 1984 vol 451 cc1271-5
Lord Jacques

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are taking to establish alternative employment in those mining communities where it is proposed to close down mines.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (The Earl of Avon)

My Lords, I wish to make it clear that so far as current proposed closures are concerned there will be no compulsory redundancies. Any miner wishing to continue working as a miner will be able to do so. Therefore, typically, in a community where it is proposed to close a mine a number of miners will take advantage of the generous early retirement scheme and others will transfer to another pit.

However, some of the mining areas concerned are ones where there are already general employment problems. For those areas there is available the wide range of special employment and training measures operated by the Manpower Services Commission, and, according to the area concerned, regional or national schemes to encourage new or extended industrial investment.

Lord Jacques

My Lords, is the Minister aware that underlying the objection to the closure of pits is the fear that local communities which are well knit together will be left without the means of livelihood? The steel board did a great deal to promote alternative employment when it closed steel works. What has the coal board done?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, as I tried to explain in my original reply, the situation is not as the noble Lord describes. The miners can either have redundancy terms or jobs in alternative pits. I explained the matter to the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, the other day when I pointed out the difference between the steel scheme and that of the National Coal Board. First, I made the point that so far the National Coal Board has been able to avoid compulsory redundancies. Secondly, I said that any coal industry equivalent of BSC would have to operate many more locations and, therefore, would probably be less effective.

Lord Rochester

My Lords, would not the promise of some special measures to provide alternative employment in these mining communities be a means by which the Government might help to break the logjam without intervening in the current dispute itself?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, yesterday in the other place my right honourable friend pointed out that any manpower reductions would be obtained by miners' voluntary decisions; and pit closures and their timings is, of course, a matter for the coal board.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, can the Minister tell us how many tonnes of Polish coal have been imported into this country so far this month?

The Earl of Avon

No, my Lords, I do not have figures for that.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, can my noble friend tell us what is the perspective of this problem? What has been the average number of pit closures over the past 10 years?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, as my noble friend is aware, at the moment the average is no greater than it has previously been. In fact, during the 1960s it was vastly higher. Some 300 pits were closed during the terms of office of the Socialist Party.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, does not the noble Earl understand that this whole issue is about communities and about jobs which will be lost forever? Is the noble Earl aware that it is no good the Government imagining that the miners will be satisfied with redundancy payments, however high, because the loss of jobs will destroy their communities, which is what the dispute is all about? When will the Government cease behaving like some corporate Pontius Pilate and stop washing their hands of the whole affair?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, the Government are not washing their hands of the whole affair. The Government have invested in the coal industry to a degree of which the noble Lord is well aware. In addition, as was stated in the other place yesterday, the Government intend to continue to invest in the coal industry to the tune of some £3 billion over the next three years. We believe in the mining industry; we want to ensure that it is profitable and that the miners themselves have a future, which we believe they have.

The Earl of Onslow

My Lords, is it not true that if we make sure that mining jobs are kept open in uneconomic pits, then wages will be kept down in the other mining areas? Furthermore, is it not just as sensible to say, as the noble Lord opposite has said, that we will keep in jobs the flint-makers, for musket barrels, and the fletchers, for arrows, because otherwise we shall destroy local communities? We have to create real wealth and not subsidise old and dying industries.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I take issue with my noble friend on his last sentence. This is not a dying industry. This is an industry into which the Government are putting a lot of money and which they believe can be profitable. The stoppage of the pit closures planned by the National Coal Board will not help to make this profitable.

Lord Somers

My Lords, is not one of the difficulties that miners have not only their jobs but their homes and their families on the spot? Are any measures being taken to provide for them as well?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, as I said in my initial reply, where mining areas already have general employment problems there are a wide range of benefits such as the special employment and training measures operated by the Manpower Services Commission.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, is the noble Minister not aware that in areas such as Greater Manchester and Wigan and the Leigh area, where pits have previously closed, unemployment has increased further under this Government and they have almost become no-hope areas? The question is about alternative employment. What are the Government going to do about this?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, besides those things I mentioned in my original reply, the European Coal and Steel Community provides cheap loan finance for investment projects which promote the interests of the coal and steel industries and for "reconversion" projects providing new employment for redundant coal and steel workers. Over the last five years over £182 million has been made available for investment finance under this scheme.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, would my noble friend consider doing an investigation to see what happened to the miners when 44 mines were closed every year during the last Labour Government? Have they been redeployed in new industries? If there is any doubt, and if we could help as a Government, would my noble friend set up an arrangement whereby retraining is possible so that every possible facility could be offered and every goodwill shown to redeploy people who want retraining in the area where they live?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, indeed I have not got the statistics which my noble friend suggests, or asks for. I shall see whether they could be forthcoming. I take note of his points.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, would the Minister agree that we do not want to make a party political issue of this, as the last question seemed to imply? In that period there was full employment, which is rather different from what we have today. Does the noble Earl appreciate—while I know that he is a kindly individual—that his replies seem somewhat insensitive to the points being raised, that it is whole communities that are being destroyed? It is not the loss of just the mines, but of all the other businesses in the area. The Government cannot leave this to profit and loss and the market factor.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord is saying. What I am equally trying to say in this quite sensitive time is that there are opportunities for the miners in pit closures to have alternative jobs. Outside that there are also redundancy terms available to them. Noble Lords are shaking their heads. If we only could get the message across, there is a position for any miner who wants to work in a mine so to do.

Lord Diamond

My Lords, the noble Earl was good enough to refer to the Question of mine which he answered a little earlier. May I ask him whether he recollects that I found that Answer totally unsatisfactory and insensitive? Can he recollect that I drew his attention to the fact that we were not talking about compulsory retirement involving money; we were talking about communites, villages, wives, and livelihoods? May I ask him once more what possible argument is there against the coal board's showing goodwill and good sense in trying to set up an organisation parallel to that which the steel board set up and which proved so successful, to demonstrate the Government's real, sincere interest in looking after displaced miners?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, as I said to the noble Lord on that occasion—and I have the Hansard in front of me—there are three reasons in particular why it is not similar to British Steel. I also said to him—I think on that occasion, although I have not quickly read it to make sure that I did—that this has been discussed, but at the moment because of the differences between the two sets of circumstances it is not thought to be appropriate.

Lord Blyton

My Lords, in my lifetime I have seen uneconomic pits become economic after they have got through geological difficulties. Can the Minister tell me, with Durham and Northumberland with 20 per cent. unemployed, where our miners will get jobs in the Tyneside conurbations?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, if I say that the disparity between the price of coal coming from an economic pit and an uneconomic one is £30 as against over £70, perhaps the need for the closures will be evident. I did not quite follow the rest of the noble Lord's question.

Lord Blyton

My Lords, can the Minister tell me where miners in Northumberland and Durham will get a job when pits close, with 20 per cent. unemployment in the Tyneside conurbations?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating that because it enables me to say once again that all the miners who want to go on working have been found a job in other mines.

Lord Whaddon

My Lords, bearing in mind the concern expressed in so many parts of this House on helping the communities when mines close down, does the noble Earl recall the great success of COSIRA in helping difficult rural areas, and the suggestion that has been made several times of extending that to difficult urban areas under the so-called COSURBA? Will he again consider the possibility of doing this?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I think I have mentioned the various types of assistance which are available, such as special development area status, development area status and intermediate area status. All these things are indeed being considered.

Lord Whaddon

My Lords, does the Minister realise that these do not help the promotional aspects of the COSIRA-type organisation, which is most necessary to employ the funds that are available?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I note what the noble Lord has said, and I shall certainly consider it.

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