Copyright Law: Reform (Hansard, 29 March 1984)

§ The Earl of Winchilsea and Nottingham
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, the Cable and Broadcasting Bill, which has now completed its passage in your Lordships' House, contains provisions for improving copyright protection which will benefit the entertainment industries. On a wider front, the Government are committed to a comprehensive reform of the copyright law as soon as possible, although no legislative timetable can yet be given.

§ The Earl of Winchilsea and Nottingham
My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord the Minister for his somewhat optimistic reply, is he aware that it is the considered opinion of the record industry, which I share, that unless legislation is introduced during the 1984–85 Session the enormous contribution that this important and influential industry makes not only to our balance of payments but also to our position as a world leader in the variety and quality of its products, and which is already seriously reduced, will be subjected to further very serious reductions?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am afraid we cannot say at this stage what might happen as to future legislation since the details of the 1984–85 Session have not yet been finalised, but I am sure the noble Earl will appreciate that the programme is certainly very crowded. The Government are aware of the problems which have been spelled out by the noble Earl. I believe he will agree, and your Lordships will agree, that there are many problems but also many possible solutions. I am able to tell the noble Earl that the problem of home recording—which I think is the main problem that affects the entertainment industries that concern him and the royalties lost as a result of home taping—is currently under consideration by Ministers.

§ Lord Lloyd of Hampstead
My Lords, does the noble Minister bear in mind that the Whitford report on copyright reform was published as long ago as 1977 and that, in a debate on the Government's Green Paper of 1981 which took place in this House exactly two years ago, the noble Lord the Minister himself remarked that all responses to the Green Paper should be in by August 1982 and, moreover, that every effort would be made to introduce legislative proposals as urgently as possible? Does not the noble Minister agree that the two years that have elapsed since that time have been adequate time to enable the Government to formulate legislative proposals for reform in this most important field, which affects, among other things, two crucial industries in this country—namely, the record and film industries?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. Indeed, I have the Green Paper here. I seem to remember taking part in various discussions in your Lordships' House, then and since. We are very grateful for the noble Lord's continuing interest in this subject but, as he will be aware, the issues concerning copyright are very complex. Indeed, the continuing involvement of new issues, new technologies and a number of difficult and controversial issues has meant that continuing wide consultation is still necessary. I am afraid the position has not advanced further since my last comments on this subject.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister take very much to heart the record of the dates which my noble friend Lord Lloyd of Hampstead recited, thereby robbing me of the opportunity of showing the House my own historical knowledge in this matter? In taking those dates to heart, is the Minister aware that the Copyright Reform Group, consisting of all the organisations mainly concerned with copyright in various industries, wrote to his right honourable friend the Prime Minister on 9th March calling her immediate attention to the fact that legislation is urgently needed in this field and that promises have not so far been fulfilled in regard to legislation? Finally, is he aware that the two main concerns in the entertainment industry are unauthorised private recording, both audio and video, and point-to-point communication via satellite? Will he press upon those responsible for those matters the desirability of including legislation in the Session that has already been mentioned; namely 1984–85?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, on the noble Lord's last question I shall do everthing I can to make my right honourable friends aware of the deep feeling that is felt not only by the noble Lord but all round your Lordships' House. The noble Lord referred to point-to-point and satellite broadcasting. On the letter to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, I regret that I was not aware of this, but certainly I am grateful for the information. The noble Lord referred to the Copyright Reform Group, with which I surmise he has some connection—

§ Lord Mishcon
No. my Lords.

§ Lord Lyell
He does not, I am sorry.
341 I was going to say that, if he did, it would have a very powerful advocate. I know that this matter of copyright reform is of great interest to many of your Lordships. We are continuing to have discussions with members of the Copyright Reform Group both in your Lordships' House and in the Department.

§ Lord Howard of Henderskelfe
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the very swift advance to which he has referred and the many changes which are taking place are the very reasons legislation is urgently demanded to cope with these new and extreme difficulties which were not envisaged in previous years? I fear that the report to which reference was made earlier is not now wholly relevant because so much has happened in between. I ask the noble Lord to use every ounce of his well-known persuasion to persuade those sitting near him and others who sit in another place to introduce legislation at the earliest possible date.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am immensely grateful to the noble Lord for his flattery. He says "every ounce". I am trying to lose ounces every day. Indeed, it is in part the hospitality in your Lordships' House that causes me to gain ounces. I shall certainly take everything that the noble Lord has said to my right honourable friend, but I am sure that the noble Lord and all your Lordships would agree that, with the increase in technology, and the new issues that are arising such as satellite broadcasting, if we are to legislate, we must get it right. There is no point in legislating and then in three, four or even five years' time, finding that that legislation has been utterly overtaken.

§ Lord Hooson
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that there is an urgent case for setting up a departmental committee to investigate immediately the incidence and the nature of piracy in these industries?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned piracy. I think that he will be aware that a Private Member's Bill dealing with video piracy has been through your Lordships' House and I think is coming up in another place. As far as a departmental inquiry is concerned, I shall convey that point to my right honourable friend.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, would it not be desirable for the noble Lord to persuade his colleagues to pull out one or two issues on which there is widespread agreement, as is evidenced in this House this afternoon—for example, on the issue of home recording—and legislate on them rather than wait for another two or three years for a number of issues which are indeed changing technologically and are arguable? If the Government wait as they have been doing for the past two years, they will never legislate. Will they not legislate without further delay on those points which are widely agreed?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, that depends on how widely these points are agreed. I am sure that the noble Lord, and indeed one or two of your Lordships who spoke earlier, would agree that there are one or two pressing issues, but I stressed to the noble Earl earlier in my 342 replies that the problem of home recording was under urgent consideration by Ministers. I am sure that that point will ring a bell for the noble Lord with his ministerial experience.