HL Deb 29 March 1984 vol 450 cc337-9

3.7 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Government of the USSR has indicated willingness to discuss the abolition or limitation of weapons of chemical and bacteriological warfare; and what action Her Majesty's Government propose to take in the light of the attitude of the USSR.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, (Baroness Young)

My Lords, in the negotiations at the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva on a ban on chemical weapons, the USSR have recently confirmed their acceptance of one aspect of routine on-site inspection. We now urge the Soviet Union to agree quickly on all remaining aspects of an effective and verifiable ban, so that the development, production and stockpiling of chemical weapons can be outlawed for all time. The Soviet Union is a party, as are we, to the 1972 Convention banning biological weapons. We are considering with other parties to the 1972 Convention how the compliance provisions may be improved.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords. I thank my noble friend for that interesting Answer. Can she indicate when further discussions with the Soviet Union in respect of chemical warfare, and in particular the inspection provisions, are likely to take place?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the negotiations are continuing. I understand there are two sessions a year on this question. As my noble friend will know, we ourselves have proposed procedures for investigating any doubt about compliance which normal inspection procedures might not be able to resolve.

Lord Bishopston

My Lords, in view of the allegations that chemical weapons have been used in the Iraq-Iran conflict, the importance of the noble Lord's Question is beyond doubt. Is the noble Baroness aware that the United States, too, has recently sought consent to go ahead with the development of a new range of chemical weapons? In view of these factors—and apart from those mentioned by the noble Lord. Lord Boyd-Carpenter—will the Government use their initiative to bring about an agreement at the earliest opportunity, having regard also to the problems of verification?

Baroness Young

My Lords, with the renewed reports of the use of chemical weapons outside Europe and the existence of a very large Soviet chemical weapons offensive capability, we believe that a total ban is an urgent requirement.

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that the problem of verification—and we all wish it well—is particularly difficult in relation to chemical weapons once they are made? I understand that there arc between 200,000 and 300,000 tonnes deployed fairly forward in the USSR. Can my noble friend confirm that that is still the estimate? Those chemicals take up a very small amount of space; and, therefore, can my noble friend also confirm that very difficult negotiations lie ahead to be sure of verification? Could she also confirm that it is with reluctance that the United States of America, against a position of not having these modern chemicals, has entered into development work again? Indeed, the noble Baroness might perhaps know whether that has been one of the factors that has led to the Soviet Union being prepared to talk about disarmament in this area.

Baroness Young

Yes, my Lords. I can confirm that it is important to get verification, and that this is not easy to achieve. However, we are hoping that we shall reach agreement on this matter. I can also confirm that the United States has limited chemical weapon capability. It is very small in comparison with the Soviet Union's. which is assessed at over 300,000 tonnes of chemical warfare agent, with the weapons to deliver it. No new United States weapons have been produced since 1969. Last year Congress declined to authorise funds to modernise the ageing United States capability.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, is it the Government's understanding that the weapons being used by Iraq in the conflict with Iran were manufactured by the Iraqis themselves? If this is so, does it not indicate that measures to control should not be limited to the super-powers but that the important question to which the international community must address itself is how to restrict the technology of manufacturing these weapons and the transfer of that technology from the advanced countries to nations such as Iraq?

Baroness Young

My Lords, a team of specialists appointed by the United Nations Secretary-General has concluded that chemical weapons have been used in the conflict between Iraq and Iran. I cannot comment on where they were manufactured. However, I should like to reiterate that for all these reasons we believe that a total ban on chemical weapons is urgently needed.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, in view of the speed with which any country can manufacture chemical weapons after the outbreak of hostilities, and the likelihood that they would do so in self-defence, is there not a very unfortunate but strong argument that the world would be safer if all countries had chemical weapons as a deterrent to stop their being used, rather than having none and waiting for one side to break any agreement during hostilities?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I think that that is a hypothetical situation. We believe that the best way forward is to try to get agreement to abolish the use of chemical weapons in any country in the world.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that, after nuclear weapons, bacteriological and chemical weapons are probably the most hideous and deadly weapons still left in the armoury of a not particularly sane mankind? The endeavours of this Government in seeking to get a complete ban are to be applauded. Does the noble Baroness further agree that here is an opportunity for the Soviet Union to show that it, too, along with our Government, believes this is one step it could take with the United States, after the lead given by the British Government, to get a total ban on these appalling weapons? The Government are worthy of all our approval.

Baroness Young

My Lords, as I have said, we are working towards a ban on chemical weapons; and, as far as bacteriological weapons are concerned, the next review conference takes place in 1985. This will provide an opportunity to discuss ways of improving the effectiveness of that convention.