§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of Dr. Gilbert's statement in the House of Commons on 20th July 1977 (col. 608) that US forces had defence facilities at more than 100 locations in this country, they will reconsider the answer given by the Lord Belstead on 3rd May 1983 (col. 62) that Lord Jenkins of Putney had "thought up" this figure.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the figure of more than 100 locations described by his noble friend Lord Belstead—who I am glad to see in his place—was a figure given by Dr. John Gilbert when he was Minister for Defence? Therefore, it was not, as the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, said, a figure plucked out of the air. Neither was it a false allegation because I draw the noble Lord's attention to the fact that, since then, the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Army Air Force told Congress in 1982 that there were 112 United States installations in the United Kingdom. Therefore, is it not the case that it would be courteous and in accordance with the customs of the House if the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, were to decide to withdraw the allegations that he made?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I think that my noble friend was as much at a loss to decide from where the right honourable gentleman had obtained his answer as he was regarding the noble Lord.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, but this is not a matter which can easily be brushed aside. What is being done here—
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is it not the case that the questioner is being pilloried in this case? It is being suggested that the questioner invented the figure. Is it not the case that I have proved that the figure was not invented, that it was quoted by the Government on a previous occasion, and that it has been quoted by a General in the United States Air Force? I am prepared to give chapter and verse on that. In those 480 circumstances, is it not right that the suggestion that the figure was invented should be withdrawn?
§ Lord TrefgarneNo, my Lords, I do not think it is right at all. If the noble Lord will study again the remarks of my noble friend he will see that my noble friend was as much at a loss, as I said just now, as to the answer from the right honourable gentleman, Dr. John Gilbert, as he was about the observations of the noble Lord.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is a critical difference between the word "installations" and the word "locations"; both used by the noble Lord opposite to confuse?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am sure that my noble friend is right. That may be the cause of one of the noble Lord's misapprehensions.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, may I trespass further upon your Lordships' time. I should like to point out—
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I should like to ask whether it is not the case that if the difference between us here is a matter of nomenclature then that should be said and the veracity and the accuracy of the questioner should not be put in doubt?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the noble Lord is entitled to his point of view, but I am afraid I do not agree with him.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord, who is always fair in these matters, would give rather more assistance to my noble friend? Would the noble Lord agree that it is a fair Question and refers specificially to "100 locations in this country"? Is it the case that there are 100 "locations", or is it the case as the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, said, 100 "installations"? Will the noble Lord the Minister be good enough for the benefit of the House to clarify the position beyond peradventure; otherwise my noble friend cannot be satisfied with the Answer?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I have in fact provided one, or perhaps two, Written Answers to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, giving him the detail of the matter. As the noble Lord opposite may not be aware, we have answered on several occasions that there are about 64 of these facilities.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is it not the case—
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I am sorry to trespass upon the House, but we must be accurate. Is it not the position that the 112 installations described by the United States General to Congress do exist in this country and that the noble Lord, in suggesting that that is not the case, is merely juggling with the figures?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the position is as I and my noble friends have told the noble Lord on a number of occasions.