HL Deb 21 June 1984 vol 453 cc433-5

3.8 p.m.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in view of the answer given on 10th May (col. 1008) they will state the date on which the guidelines concerned were sent to the Electricity and Gas Consumers' Councils.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, draft guidelines for discussion with the councils were sent to the secretariats concerned on 8th June.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords. I hope that the Minister feels very had about that Answer. Does he recall that, going hack to 2nd February, he told us that the Under-Secretary of State was in earnest about getting on with this particular matter? We then waited three months, until 10th May, when I asked the noble Lord whether he was aware that the people concerned had said that no discussions had taken place. The noble Lord informed the House that guidelines would be sent out within the next few days. Moving on from there, and waiting another four weeks, does the noble Lord realise that I made further inquiries and was told that, contrary to having been received within the next few days, nothing at all had been received and that I then decided that the only course to take in order to ensure that the papers would be received was to put down a Question? Is the noble Lord aware that he wrote to me on 13th June, which was five weeks from 10th May, with no apology or regret for the delay? He said that the guidelines had now been sent. Does the noble Lord really and truly think that that is good enough—especially when, on 10th May, at col. 1007, he did not say merely that the papers would be sent within the next few days but, literally within the next few days"?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I certainly owe the noble Baroness an apology, and I give her an unqualified one. It was not good enough, so far as I was concerned. to say that I thought the papers would be sent out, literally within the next few days", and I am afraid that it was not until 8th June that the papers were in fact sent. Having said that, I am sure the noble Baroness will join with me in taking great pleasure that the material has now been sent to the councils.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I am not going to have my heart softened by the affection in which we all hold the noble Lord. First, is he aware that the papers were not sent until 13th June (according to his letter) and not 8th June? Is he aware that the letters were not received until 15th June? In view of this, does he wonder at the fact that consumer organisations, of whichever political party, have complete scepticism about the Government's concern for consumers of the products of nationalised industries? Will be please do something about this matter?

Lord Belstead

As a matter of fact, my Lords, the papers were sent out on 8th June. If I may pick up almost the last point put to me by the noble Baroness on 10th May, she said then—and I fully understood why—that the recipients of the papers would need some discussion, some meeting of minds. I hope the noble Baroness will feel that the department has been active in this matter, in that it was approached by both the electricity and the gas consumers' councils (the recipients of the papers) and a meeting has already been arranged for. I understand, 28th June.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

But, my Lords, they have had to wait five weeks for those discussions.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, that will make the meeting all the better.

Baroness Elliot of Harwood

My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to inquire what the hold-up has been? These delays occur all the time, and always the same excuse is given. Perhaps there is some difficulty between the two departments, but there must be something that can be done to speed the process. I have listened to the noble Baroness speak on this subject very often, and I myself sat on a consumer council. I find it extraordinary that ways are found to delay matters.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I have also listened to the noble Baroness opposite on this subject and to my noble friend, and I am perfectly clear that they both have very distinguished records and a close interest in this particular area. All I can say is that I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to this afternoon's exchange in your Lordships' House.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, would the information not be got out a bit more quickly if the relevant documents were classified?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, my experience is that that would not help.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, on the basis of the replies given by the Minister this afternoon, will he consider whether the department concerned is operating on an efficient and cost-effective basis?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I must make it clear on behalf of the department—and this is partly an answer to my noble friend—that the reason why a considerable period of time elapsed during 1983 was because the offerings from the NICCs themselves had to be received, and they differed quite considerably in content and in structure. The aim has been to produce concise drafts which share a recognisable common framework, so that the consumer councils themselves and the consumers shall know where they are. We have reached the position now where at least drafts have been sent to both the electricity and the gas consumers' councils—the two biggest.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, the House is very kind—it is sometimes difficult to put points in the form of a question—but perhaps I might ask one further question. Is the noble Lord aware that in the letter he sent to me no urgency is expressed, that there is no sense of urgency hidden away in a single word of that letter? Have the Government given any date by which the two councils must reply to them? Can the Minister give any indication of when he will be in a position to make a further statement to the House?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I cannot help the noble Baroness with the first of her questions because the ball is in the court of the consumer councils. As I have said, they will first be talking again—because they wish to do so—with the Department of Trade and Industry, and will then be talking with the industries concerned. So far as concerns the Government making another statement, I have a feeling that the noble Baroness may be raising this matter again in the foreseeable future.

Lord Morris

My Lords, do these exchanges not amply justify the Minister's fondness for the adverb "shortly'?

Lord Belstead

My Lords. "shortly" means as soon as possible. We really will try to see that that assurance is fulfilled.