European Parliament: Electoral System (Hansard, 23 July 1984)

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
Yes, my Lords.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this week the Government will be formally condemned by the president of the European Assembly for having used an electoral system of advantage to themselves which has seriously distorted the political balance of the Assembly? Is he aware that of the 54 parties in the Assembly, only one—the British Conservative party—is greatly overrepresented, and that this is directly due to the actions of a Conservative Government?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, it remains the fact that in every constituency contested there were more people who wanted members of other parties to represent them than members of the noble Lord's party.

§ Lord Bottomley
My Lords, would the Minister agree that the present general election in Israel indicates the ineffectiveness of proportional representation as a method of electing members and a government?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I make it a rule not to discuss the affairs of other countries from this Dispatch Box.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, the Question deals solely with the recent European election. Therefore would it not be advisable for those who want a change of system to say clearly what change of system they want? If they want strictly proportional representation, does not that entail a list system with power to the party bureaucracies? If they want a single transferable vote, does not that mean large constituencies with contact with communities virtually non-existent? Does it not also mean giving first preference votes to second, third, or fourth or more preference voters? In other words, to the least favoured candidates?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, my answer to that admirable supplementary question is the same as my answer to the substantive Question: yes, my Lords.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, does the Minister realise that nothing astounds us less on these Benches than the coalition between the Conservative and Labour parties on this matter? Is he also aware that what surprises us is that a Minister of the Crown should say that he regards a fair representation of political opinion in the European Parliament as meaning that 20 per cent. of people in this country have no representation at all? Is he aware that there are arguments against electoral reform, but that there is no conceivable reason for saying that it results in a fair representation in the European Parliament? Does the Conservative Party really want to find itself arm in arm with the Labour Party and on the record by this quite monstrous Answer?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, on coalitions, the noble Lord's party has more experience than does mine. As to the matter of representation, I have always understood that the art of parliamentary representation was that, regardless of his party affiliation, a parliamentary representative—and presumably a European parliamentary representative—represented all his constituents.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, when the noble Lord says that he does not know which system the Alliance supports, will he consult his noble friend the noble Viscount, because of course we support the system introduced in Northern Ireland by the noble Viscount himself? We oppose the Israeli system and we oppose list systems. We have made our position completely clear, and we have the noble Viscount on our side in this matter.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, your Lordships have almost answered that question without my assistance. I think it is fair to say that the system we now have produces people who represent those who elect them including those who have voted against them. The last exchanges have served to show that there is a wide range of different methods of PR. To ask the bald question: Do you want PR or something else?" is not to ask a question susceptible to a single answer.

§ Lord Alexander of Potterhill
My Lords, does that answer mean in simple terms that since the war all governments have represented a majority of people who did not vote for them?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, since the war all governments have been composed of parties elected by people in constituencies who outnumbered those who wanted to elect other parties. Ever since 1922 they have been founded on a system which noble Lords who sit in the far left-hand corner opposite have deplored because it has not returned them to power.

§ Lord Alexander of Potterhill
My Lords, is not that statement very inaccurate? Since the war there has never been a government which had a majority of those who voted in the election. That is a statement of fact.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, both of us are stating facts, and both of us are correct.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the levity with which he and his colleagues on those Benches treat these questions indicates their contempt for the will of the people—the traditional contempt of the Tory party for the will of the people?

§ Lord Elton
No, my Lords, it shows a certain attitude we have to the will of noble Lords who belong to the party to which the noble Lord belongs, because we believe that what they propose is something which was rejected by 70 per cent. of the people who elected the present Government in the last election.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, if the Minister holds that all Members of the other place represent all their constituents, why does the Conservative Party bother to have general elections at all? Surely the answer is that they can quite well be represented by the Labour and Alliance Members of the House of Commons?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am slightly surprised that the noble Lord, who has been a Member of another place, should ask me why I think that Members of another place speak for all their constituents, because I should have thought that that was what he did. As to generation of policy, our system produces an opportunity for electors to choose between parties with policies and they know which person they want to be Prime Minister. The noble Lord's system produces a number of small groups who have to be sorted out after an election so that the party programme can then be decided and the Prime Minister chosen.