HL Deb 23 July 1984 vol 455 cc9-12

3 p.m.

Lord Henderson of Brompton

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Manpower Services Commission have yet completed their work on a new code of good practice on employing disabled people and on ways of making existing quota legislation for the employment of disabled people more effective>

Viscount Long

My Lords, work on the code of good practice is almost complete and the Manpower Services Commission will be considering a draft code on 26th July. The commission was originally due to consider a draft in June, but the timetable was extended in order to take account of some important suggestions.

Quite separate consideration is being given by a working group to suggestions for making the existing quota legislation more effective. The group will submit its report to the commission later this year.

Lord Henderson of Brompton

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount the Minister for that reply. I should like to congratulate the MSC on its progress towards completing the draft code in three days' time. May I ask the Minister whether we shall be allowed sight of this draft code so that we can comment on it? Further, why is it that work on ways of making the existing quota legislation more effective was not completed in June, as he forecast it would be when I last raised this question shortly after Easter?

Viscount Long

My Lords, if I may, I shall reply as quickly as I can because a great deal went into this report. I should also like to join the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, in congratulating the working party on being so patient in dealing with such a technical subject. As I stated in my original reply, the work on this matter is being undertaken separately from that on the code of practice. It was not due to be completed in June.

The working group is currently examining suggestions for improving the effectiveness of the quota scheme within the framework of existing legislation. In the light of the broadly differing views about the quota held by those represented in the group, a timetable allowing a number of meetings has been necessary so that a full exchange of ideas can take place. I understand that the group will shortly consider the final text of the report which, once agreed, will be put to the commission later in the year.

Baroness Darcy (de Knayth)

My Lords, can the Minister indicate whether the code of practice might be suitable for being made the subject of legislative enforcement? Can the Minister confirm that the employment interests of the disabled will require legislative protection?

Viscount Long

My Lords, in answer to the noble Baroness, it would be much better if it was all voluntary.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I should like to join with the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, in his persistence in raising this Question? It is three months since he raised it last time. I commend the MSC on its progress towards producing a code of conduct perhaps on a quota basis. Is it also not a fact that over the last few years history has shown that, unless we make the proposals mandatory on employers, their response will not be as generous as noble Lords in this House would wish? Would the Minister not also agree— that, unless there is a substantial increase in the economic situation as a whole, with a corresponding reduction in unemployment in general, quotas or even mandatory proposals on behalf of the disabled in this country regarding unemployment would mean very little?

Viscount Long

My Lords, I agree that the subject is extremely serious. As I have just said to the noble Baroness, we would like to see it dealt with more on a voluntary than a mandatory basis, though in the end it will have to become mandatory in the future once the working group has all its facts together.

As regards unemployment, since the introduction of voluntary registration for employment at job centres in October 1982, regular statistics on the unemployment of disabled people have been available only for those who choose to register at job centres and careers offices. However, it is also intended to compile statistics from sample surveys and the labour force survey being conducted by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys should begin to provide information on these matters from the first half of 1985.

Baroness Lane-Fox

My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that, as numbers of potential employees who are disabled at present do not register, as my noble friend mentioned, the quota system so far has been most unsatisfactory and should be replaced as soon as possible—we are very hopeful of what will come out—by a very much better system which would seek the co-operation of employees rather than to threaten them with penalties which must be obsolete, whatever anybody says, when integration is our target?

Viscount Long

Yes, my Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right, but we must wait for the working party to complete its findings. Having done that we shall know where we are going.

Lord Henderson of Brompton

My Lords, would not the most constructive way forward, following the remarks of both noble Baronesses, be for the Government to drop the concept of registration of disabled people in relation to employment? Is it not the mere fact of registration that makes it so difficult for this legislation to be implemented? If the code of practice, whether voluntary or mandatory, were embodied in legislation would not that be a very satisfactory way of making progress?

Viscount Long

My Lords, I am grateful for the constructive way in which the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, is trying to put this together, because it is, as I said earlier, very technical. The Manpower Services Commission recommended in 1981 that the quota legislation be replaced by a statutory general duty linked to a code of practice. However, because the response to this proposal was mixed, the Government decided to retain the quota scheme for the time being. At the same time they asked the commission to look further at ways of improving the quota scheme within the framework of existing legislation. The commission is currently doing this through the working group it has established and it would not be appropriate to consider changes in the quota scheme until the recommendations are known.

Lord Diamond

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware of where the statistics of the OPCS to which he referred are to be published?

Viscount Long

My Lords, in the report.

Viscount Ingleby

My Lords, as the only Member of the mobile Bench who has not yet spoken today, may I ask the Minister what efforts are being made to inform employers of the availability of grants for the adaptation of premises and for aids to employment and of the job introduction scheme?

Viscount Long

My Lords, I think we are going a little wide of the original Question.

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