§ 3.20 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to abolish the regulations governing minimum space in houses in Scotland.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State issued a consultative document on 8th June with proposals for the removal of housing space standards and other associated requirements from the building standards regulations. While removing these unnecessary restrictions, the proposals incorporate a number of essential safeguards for health and safety.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl who has answered my Question five brief and simple supplementary questions? First, is it the case that the Barratt solo flats which are being built in Scotland contravene the 1958 regulations? Secondly, is it the case that every application made by Barratt to the Secretary of State for Scotland for dispensation has been granted? Thirdly, is it true that last year Barratt 1042 gave the Conservative Party £10,000? Fourthly, is it the case that Barratt provided Mrs. Thatcher with free transport during the 1979 election? Finally, is it the case that the chairman of Barratt, Laurie Barratt, was given a knighthood in 1982?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, supplementary questions numbers three, four and five are totally irrelevant to the Question on the Order Paper. With regard to the noble Lord's first two supplementaries, the responsibility for the issuing of building warrants rests with local authorities. There has been a relaxation by the Secretary of State of certain regulations separating the area between bathrooms and living accommodation. As far as I am aware at the moment, no other regulations have been breached.
§ Lord Carmichael of KelvingroveMy Lords, will the Minister accept that in allowing the solo flats to go ahead the Secretary of State did waive building regulations and, in fact, reduced the requirements and made the regulations for private building a good deal less onerous than those for public building? Is he aware that there is great anxiety in Scotland about any thought of diminution of housing space? Does he appreciate that only desperation for a roof over their heads, plus a very hard sell by certain companies—reputed to be in the nature of £2,000 per house on advertising—is forcing people, in particular young couples, to take these houses, which they are then finding very great difficulty in selling if they need to move to another place? Finally, has the Minister visited any of these houses being built? I can assure him that even in their showroom condition—that is, with everything looking right and properly and scientifically laid out—the space is quite abominable. It will be a tragedy if there is any reduction at all in space in Scottish housing.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I think the main point of the noble Lord's supplementary question concerned a relaxation of building standards. As far as I am aware, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State did not relax the building regulations: he relaxed the space regulations, which are totally different. As the noble Lord might be aware—and I am sure he is—there are no space regulations in England and Wales. It is an historical event in Scotland. To deprive the Scottish public of a wide choice of flats, such as solo flats, would not be to their advantage.
§ Lord Carmichael of KelvingroveMy Lords, I am sorry to come back to the noble Earl the Minister, but that is precisely the reason for the anxiety in Scotland. We were cursed for very many generations with quite inadequate space in our houses. Is the noble Earl aware that there is great terror that if we continue as we are and space regulations are reduced further we could get back to the terrible problems of the single-flat house that was the curse of Scotland for so many years?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, as the noble Lord is no doubt aware, the consultation paper to which I have already referred is the second of the consultation papers. It is right to summarise the result from the first consultation paper that all sectors agree that the requirements relating to housing need to be simplified.
1043 I omitted to answer an earlier supplementary as to whether I have visited these solo flats. I have not visited the flats in Scotland, but before I was given the privilege and honour of joining the Front Bench I was responsible for building some in England.
§ Lord Peyton of YeovilMy Lords, did my noble friend note the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, in asking his supplementary question in no way echoed, and by implication dissociated himself from, the innuendoes cavilled by the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby?
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, on a lighter note than that heavy one, would the noble Earl, who is doing so well in his new position, consider cultivating a Scots accent similar to that of my noble friend Lord Carmichael?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, having been at a village school in Scotland many years ago, I did have a very broad Scots accent. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord because it has become a little more Anglicised.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, the noble Earl the Minister answered my first supplementary questions by pointing out that the regulations come under the local authorities. Is he aware that the applications were made to the local authorities and were turned down by the local authorities, that Barratt then appealed to the Secretary of State for Scotland and that on every occasion the Secretary of State for Scotland gave his dispensation? Is this purely a coincidence with the last three of the supplementary questions I asked?