Sick Pay Scheme (Hansard, 18 January 1984)

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, we are satisfied that the scheme has made a good start and is working reasonably smoothly. It is not possible to estimate how many employees have received incorrect amounts of statutory sick pay, because only a sample of cases is checked at each employer visited by the department. The amount of error in the sample checked so far has been 16 per cent., but on the whole these errors have been minor ones.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell the House whether the Government agree with the estimate of the Low Pay Unit that about 5 million employees are receiving less under this scheme than under the previous national insurance sickness benefit scheme, bearing in mind that, under this scheme, workers have to pay a national insurance contribution and income tax, which did not apply to national insurance sickness benefit?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, with regard to the comparison with sickness benefit, current sickness benefit rates are £25.95 for the claimant, £16 for an adult dependant and 15p for each child dependant. Thus, the rate of sickness benefit for a man, dependent wife and two children is the same as the £42.25 standard rate of SSP from next April. For those without dependants, the rates of SSP compare very favourably with the rate of sickness benefit.

§ Lord Wells-Pestell
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness what the Government mean by "minor" errors? The Government have been asked how many employees on sickness benefit receive incorrect amounts. What is meant by "minor', bearing in mind that when a person is sick even a small amount of money is of considerable importance?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, the scheme has been running for less than a year. It is not complex but it is a major new scheme, and some mistakes and teething troubles are to be expected. The errors that we are finding are of a kind where an improvement can be expected as the scheme becomes more familiar to everyone and settles down.

§ Lord Banks
My Lords, can the noble Baroness say how the arrangements made for those falling sick while on strike—the arrangements to receive sickness benefit instead of statutory sick pay—have worked out in practice? Were any of the people who would have been eligible for statutory sick pay had they not been on strike ineligible for sickness benefit?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I am not able to give the answer about those people on strike. The normal sickness benefit applies to those who are unemployed, self-employed and OAPs. I am afraid I do not have information on people who were on strike, but I shall write to the noble Lord.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell the House what consultation the Government have had with the TUC to advise employees of their entitlement? What redress is there for an employee who thinks he has been underpaid?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the Government consulted fully with the TUC during the passage of the legislation through Parliament, and they continue to consult with them on various aspects as the scheme gets under way. Will the noble Lord remind me of his second question?

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, what redress is there for an employee who considers he has been underpaid?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the employer is the person who has to decide what pay is to be given to the employee. There have been no complaints from employees in the samples taken on inspection in the various businesses. If the noble Lord has any particular examples he can give me, I should be very glad to look into them.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, is it not a fact that the employee who considers himself underpaid has to take the employer to the county court? Is that not a gross infringment of the rights of an employee who happens to be ill?

§ Baroness Trumpington
No, my Lords, I do not think the noble Baroness has understood the position correctly. Perhaps she and I could discuss it afterwards.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, is the noble Baroness in a position to tell the House how much has been paid out in statutory sick pay to married women in full-time employment who have opted to rely on their husbands' national insurance contributions rather than to pay contributions of their own? If, as I suspect, the figure is considerable, can I ask the noble Baroness whether it really was the Government's intention when they introduced this scheme that sick pay should now be paid to some people who would not have qualified for sick pay under the old national insurance regulations?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, as I have said before, the scheme has not been running for very long and I think it is too early to take any other figures into consideration until the inspections have been carried out over a longer period. It is much too early to come to any valid conclusions.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, was kind enough to write to me recently saying that in April 1984 the standard rate of SSP at £42.25 will be the same as the rate of sickness benefit payable to a man with a dependent wife and two children? Can she tell me whether the same ratio will apply to other groups of claimants, and what the effects of tax will be on those groups of claimants?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I have a copy of the letter which my noble friend wrote to the noble Lord. Lord Kilmarnock. and I propose, with the noble Lord's permission, to publish the text of that letter in the Official Report, adding only the fact that we have no reason, and indeed no evidence, to suppose that people have been deterred by recent changes in certification or by the SSP scheme from going absent when they are genuinely sick or from claiming money to which they are entitled when sick.

§ Baroness Macleod of Borve
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether she is aware that under this scheme widows are for the first time able to claim sickness benefit, and that that is of enormous help to them?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that statement.