HL Deb 18 January 1984 vol 446 cc1048-51

2.56 p.m.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to amend the list of species of animals in the schedule to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976, so as to include all primates, in the interests of public safety and animal welfare considerations.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, it is hoped by Easter to issue a revised schedule to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976. The schedule already includes all the old world monkeys, and consultations with leading animal experts are nearing completion on the inclusion of other primates.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, I am most grateful and satisfied with the reply that has been given. However, will the noble Lord understand that there are many who, like myself, fully supported the 1981 Zoo Licensing Act and the 1976 Dangerous Wild Animals Act, and are still concerned that some people are careless of their responsibilities both to animals and to the public? Now that Section 22 of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act is to disappear, and bearing in mind that the schedule to the Act included the new world monkeys but excluded the old world monkeys, will the Minister undertake to monitor very carefully the situation whereby zoo animals are released from zoos temporarily into private hands—which can happen particularly with the squirrel monkeys, which are favoured by street photographers—so that the care and concern of the public is borne very much in mind?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am very well aware of the concern of the public and interested members of the zoo world, the pet world and of course the RSPCA in all these matters. However, I am afraid it is still premature to say that any particular monkey will or will not be licensed. My own feeling at the moment is that it is not appropriate to license all primates irrespectively.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm or deny that he himself is a primate?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am delighted to confirm that to the noble Lord.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich

My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister be encouraged to know that the only two Primates we know on this Bench are Canterbury and York?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, there are primates and most reverend Primates, and I agree that the two should not be confused.

Health and Safety: Trainees

2.58 p.m.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what Acts of Parliament dealing with health protection and safety in employment do not apply to young people involved in the Government's various training schemes; and whether they have any plans to deal with the situation.

The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Gray of Contin)

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have introduced the Health and Safety (Youth Training Scheme) Regulations 1983, which came into force last Wednesday, to ensure that all non-employed trainees on the Youth Training Scheme will be covered in the workplace by the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and all the earlier health and safety legislation listed in that Act as "relevant statutory provisions'' in the same way as employees are covered. The Government are satisfied that the present legal position adequately protects the health and safety of trainees.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, may I express to the noble Lord how I welcome the decision of the Government to proceed in that manner? However, is the noble Lord not aware that there are insufficient inspectors with the necessary qualifications under the safety and welfare Acts to carry out this function? That being the case, may not the shortage of inspectors negate the legislation that the Government are bringing in?

Lord Gray of Contin

No, my Lords, I hope that this will not be the case. There have been reductions in the manpower of the Health and Safety Executive, but these have been accompanied by measures to use resources more effectively. I am happy to tell the noble Lord that, in fact, shortly we shall be recruiting up to 25 new factory inspectors and 10 new agricultural inspectors.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, I am grateful for that further information from the noble Lord. But it is a sad fact that in the recent past there have been fatalities and serious injuries among youngsters employed in the various youth schemes, and I hope that the increased number of inspectors which the noble Lord has announced will be sufficient to prevent any such tragedies occurring again.

Lord Gray of Contin

My Lords, I entirely agree with the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord. But, of course, the creation of inspectors will not absolutely guarantee that there will not be accidents. Everybody who is in the position of employing labour must emphasise to all those who are employed by them, whether they be trainees or employees, the necessity for observing every possible safety precaution during the execution of their duties.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that the Health and Safety at Work Act does not apply to young persons undergoing training in youth custody establishments after sentence by a court, and are the Government satisfied that proper arrangements are made for the safety and protection from injury of the young people in those establishments?

Lord Gray of Contin

My Lords, perhaps I can explain to the noble Lord that where trainees have contracts of employment they are then covered by the general duties owed by employers to their employees under Section 2 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. However, under the majority of youth training schemes trainees will not have such contracts and they will therefore be employees within the meaning of the Act as it stood before the introduction of the new regulations referred to. They were, however, covered by the broad general duties relating to non-employees under Sections 3 and 4. Perhaps I can further advise the noble Lord that the Health and Safety Executive is having a complete resumé of the effect of the various legislation at the present moment, in order to update anything as may be necessary in that area.

Lord Avebury

I am so sorry, my Lords. I was talking about young persons sentenced by the courts to periods in youth custody centres, where they may receive training as part of the rehabilitation process. Clearly they are not employees and the Health and Safety at Work Act does not apply to them. I was asking the noble Lord what provisions the Government have made and whether they are satisfied with the protection of those young persons in youth custody establishments.

Lord Gray of Contin

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord if I misunderstood his original question. But I would remind him that the whole area of legislation, so far as employment is concerned, is a very complex one and I would not care to comment on an area on which I had not been briefed, since this Question specifically refers to a particular Act. But I shall make the necessary inquiries and will let the noble Lord know in due course.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton

My Lords, in view of the Government's welcome but belated move to extend the protection of the health and safety legislation to young trainees, will the Government now take equal account of the need to extend to trainees employment protection legislation generally, and fully to protect them in respect of the Race Relations Act and the Sex Discrimination Act, under which at the moment there is only partial protection?

Lord Gray of Contin

My Lords, I have little doubt that those who read of our deliberations in this place will take note of what the noble Lord said. I can only confirm to him what I said previously, that the Health and Safety Executive are examining the whole area at the present moment.