Pupil-Teacher Ratios (Hansard, 27 February 1984)

§ Lord Vaizey
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, between 1978 and 1983 pupil to teacher ratios within primary schools in the United Kingdom improved from 23.4 to 1, to 22.1 to 1; and the pupil to teacher ratio within secondary schools improved from 16.7 to 1, to 16.2 to 1, My right honourable friends expect the figures for 1984 to show a further slight improvement.

§ Lord Vaizey
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Will he agree that the improvement, which has endured throughout this period of economic difficulty and which has continued a trend established under governments of different complexions for the past 20 years, is a remarkable achievement of the education service? Will he further say whether or not he thinks that the outcome of this substantial increase in expenditure per child has been effective in terms of reading, writing and mathematical ability?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am very grateful for my noble friend's first supplementary question. I think it deserves to be more widely appreciated that the ratio of pupils to teachers has improved in every year since this Government took office. To answer my noble friend's second supplementary question, I think that the standard of teaching depends on many other factors besides the pupil to teacher ratio. In restructuring the teacher training system, the Government sought a closer match between the qualifications of new teachers and the needs of schools. We have made additional provision for the further training of serving teachers. We propose to raise standards in initial training through the establishment of a Council for the Accreditation of Teacher Education and through criteria against which the council would assess training courses. I hope that all this will equip teachers to teach everything better, including the three Rs.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, would the Minister he prepared to extend the information that he has given to the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, by giving us the numbers in all sectors of education, and not just in the maintained sector?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am not quite sure what the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Blackburn, is asking for. If he is asking for the ratio in private schools, I shall have to write to him. I do not have those figures with me.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that we are grateful for the drop in pupil-teacher ratio which took place under the previous Government and which has continued under this Government? But is the noble Earl also aware that today almost 50,000 teachers of one kind or another are unemployed, and that there could be a considerable improvement in the ratio if the Government would only provide local authorities with money to employ those teachers? For example, is he aware that at the moment Newcastle is faced with sacking 200 teachers because of the Government's grant policy?

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords: but against that must be considered the far fewer numbers of pupils in school. We cannot employ every trained teacher; that would cause no end of problems, and some of those teachers may be less well-equipped to teach than others.

§ Lord De Freyne
My Lords, could my noble friend give an assurance that the Government's commitment to special educational needs will be fully implemented?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, yes, I could give that commitment. Wherever possible the Government are committed to getting children with special educational needs into ordinary schools, and that we shall continue to do. But there will obviously also be a need to allow those children, who for some reason or another are not fit to attend ordinary school to continue to be educated in special schools.

§ Lord Hooson
My Lords, will the noble Earl confirm that the pupil-teacher ratio is at its worst in the deprived areas of this country, in the inner cities? Will he not agree that something has to be done in those areas in particular?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I could not confirm that without notice.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, would the Minister agree that these smaller classes are largely a result of the lower birth rate? Are the Government doing anything to remedy that?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, if the noble Lord would like to contribute to that in some way, perhaps we could follow his example.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, can the Minister say whether this improvement—about which of course we are all pleased—has come about partly because the rolls have fallen more slowly than teachers have been got rid of? This is borne out by the Statistical Bulletin produced by the DES in January. Will the noble Earl also confirm that, according to this bulletin, Labour authorities have a much better pupil-teacher ratio overall than have the other authorities?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I believe it is true that the fall in the pupil population since 1978 has itself required some improvement in pupil to teacher ratio in order to sustain a constant staffing standard in the schools. But the improvement which has actually taken place is more than enough for that purpose. Therefore, in spite of the falling rolls, the pupil-teacher ratio is better. I am afraid that I have no knowledge of any particular authorities and how much they are doing.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, may I pursue my question and ask the noble Lord the Minister what the Government intend to do about the 50,000 teachers who are unemployed and who the Government have trained?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think it all depends on individual circumstances. There is going to be no block move, as it were, to take them all into employment as teachers.

Lady Saltoun
My Lords, can the noble Earl confirm that the Government are still committed to the teaching of the three Rs, on which everything else depends?

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords, I can give that assurance.

§ Lord Drumalbyn
My Lords, is my noble friend able to say whether the ratios vary greatly in different parts of the country, and in particular in Scotland, Wales, and England?

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords, they do indeed. I have full details here and I could read them out, but that would take rather a long time. Historically overall pupil-teacher ratios have been lower in Scotland than in England, and the Government's expediture plans envisage some convergence.

§ Lord Vaizey
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the question directed to him from the Alliance Benches was based on a false premise? The pupil-teacher ratio in the inner cities is considerably more favourable than that in the rest of the country.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that information.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, the noble Earl, in his last answer but one, suggested that there would be convergence of the teacher-pupil ratio in Scotland and England. Would he confirm that this will be an improvement in England rather than a deterioration in the Scottish ratio?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think it will be a mixture of both.