Metropolitan Police: Alcohol Consumption (Hansard, 27 February 1984)

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, this matter is dealt with in the police discipline code contained in Schedule 2 to the Police (Discipline) Regulations 1977. The code provides that it is a disciplinary offence for a member of any police force, while on duty and without proper authority from an officer of higher rank, to drink or receive from any other person any intoxicating liquor. Responsibility for enforcing the discipline code within the Metropolitan Police rests with the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, has the Minister read the report of the Policy Studies Institute, and particularly those sections of it in volume 4 which deal with the consumption of alcohol by the police and particularly by the CID? Would he accept that since the research on which the PSI report was based was undertaken after the regulations to which he has referred were promulgated, they clearly are not working since there are many horrendous anecdotes in that report of excessive consumption of alcohol by police officers during working hours? Does he not think that some special instructions are warranted by the Secretary of State in view of the revelations in this report?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am aware of the contents of the report which the noble Lord has described in colourful language. It recognises that drinking is a problem in many occupational groups, and that it may be more of one among policemen than in some others. It also recommends preventive medicine as being a better way of dealing with it than a heavy-handed use of discipline. The commissioner has accepted the broad assessment made of this problem by the PSI. Research is already in hand to consider the problems of stress in the force, and this has been widened to consider the related problem of drinking.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, in view of the important considerations raised in the report to which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred, has the noble Lord the Minister any knowledge of any special consultations which have taken place between the Secretary of State and the commissioner? If they have not taken place, is it not material that they should?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, my right honourable friend and the Metropolitan Commissioner of Police are in constant consultation about the discharge of the functions of the Metropolitan Police, for which my right honourable friend is the police authority.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, can the noble Lord produce any substantial and accurate evidence—detailed evidence—that the members of the police force indulge in the consumption of alcoholic liquor in working hours? Is there any evidence of that kind? If there is some evidence that occasionally a policeman takes a nip of something—I shall not say what particular 1037 brand it should be; whether it would be whisky, wine, or beer—is there anything remarkably wrong in that? Are we reaching a stage when policemen will be told that they cannot even have a smoke during working hours?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that there is probably a proper position between that of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell. To put it into perspective, in 1983 a total of 18 officers were dealt with for the three drink or drink-related offences under the discipline code. There are over 27,000 police officers altogether in the Metropolitan Police.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord the Minister will pardon my going to the Dispatch Box again? May I remind him that he answered my previous question with the rather original remark that the Secretary of State was in constant consultation with the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. Would he direct his mind to my specific question in view of the anxiety on this matter? Have special consultations taken place in regard to that portion of the report to which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred? If not, would he please tell the Secretary of State, his right honourable friend, that a consultation of this kind is necessary?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I cannot say whether the consultations included particular attention to that particular part of the large and important report, hut I shall of course draw the noble Lord's views to my right honourable friend's attention.

Lord Belhaven and Stenton
My Lords, can my noble friend enlighten me and other members of the public'? Is it an offence of members of the public to offer a police officer on duty a drink, or not?

§ Lord Elton
No, my Lords; but is is encouraging the police officer to commit an offence.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, does the noble Lord endorse what my noble friend Lord Mishcon has suggested, that there is anxiety about this matter? Is there any real anxiety about this matter?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the report by the Policy Studies Institute has made it clear that there are special anxieties about drink problems in a number of professions and that the police service is one of them. The institute has suggested how it should be dealt with. Perhaps at this point I should return to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, because my right honourable friend, as I recall, stands behind the acceptance of the commissioner of the broad assessments made of this problem by the PSI and, as I said, research is already in hand.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, if his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer increases the excise licence in a week or two's time, does the noble Lord the Minister think that this will help to solve the problem?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, if it did I should make haste to ensure that the idea is attributed to the noble Lord who has just suggested it.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, does the Minister accept that, while there may be many other professions apart from the police where alcohol is a particular hazard because of the stresses that their activities involve outside their working lives, in the case of the police we are, according to the Policy Studies Institute, dealing with a serious incidence of the consumption of alcohol during working hours? That was made plain by the Policy Studies Institute by saying that in the case of the CID it is an integral part of their working lives. Does not the noble Lord accept that this is not a matter for research, but a matter for firm instructions from the commissioner and from senior officers that drinking while on duty will not be tolerated in the CID any more that it is in the uniformed branch?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I thought I had already made clear the answer to that question, which is, "yes". I have also made it clear that it is an offence for a uniformed officer to drink on duty without specific leave from his superior officer. The same is true for those who work in plain clothes, but quite obviously there are times when one cannot gain information from somebody in a pub while drinking orangeade.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is it not part of the CID's business to contact all kinds and types in public houses? Would it not be absolutely essential for them to take a drink now and again, if they did not want to draw attention to themselves as being quite outside the general run of affairs? Is it not part of their duty at least to have a drink? Would it not be quite absurd to lay down the line that they were not to have a drink at all?—their duties would be useless.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, that is perfectly clear and true, and what I was seeking to make clear.

§ Baroness Gaitskell
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether we cannot call this question a storm in a tea cup—nothing to exaggerate, and a very personal flatter on the part of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Baroness for the appropriateness of her metaphor.

§ Lord Kinnaird
My Lords, will my noble friend please tell me this—as we have so many regulations today about drinking while driving a car, as regards the Metropolitan Police are there any regulations about drinking while riding a horse?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am not at all certain, but I know that the penalty for failure to observe them is often catastrophic.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware, as I am sure he is, that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is far from being alone in this concern? Is he not further aware that if it were made a general rule that the police on duty in pubs would drink only lemonade, that would shortly become the custom?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, no, I cannot agree with that. In fact, I think that the teacup is becoming rather crowded. There is a problem; it is not a major 1039 problem. It has been taken on board by my right honourable friend and by the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police on the basis of a well-authenticated and respectable research document. I would have thought that your Lordships would now be content to let the matter rest there.