Unemployment: Statistics (Hansard, 21 February 1984)

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Minister of State, Privy Council Office, and Minister for the Arts (The Earl of Gowrie)
My Lords, on 12th January, the number of unemployed claimants in the United Kingdom was 3,199,678, representing an unemployment rate of 13.4 per cent. An analysis by age shows that young people have the highest unemployment rate.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl the Minister for that reply, but is he aware of the report published at the weekend which 625 showed that over the past four or five years the group of people who have suffered most from job losses are the women of this country? If the Government have any schemes for job improvement or to increase job provision, will he seek to influence them to consider jobs for women as a top priority?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, as I said in my original Answer, the evidence that we have is that the worst affected groups are young people. Nevertheless, unemployment is an evil wherever it falls, and I am of course sensitive to its effects in respect of any group in our economy.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I was of course referring to the figures. The Minister referred to young people as being the groups most adversely hit. I am referring to all females, including those in the younger age groups. The figures show quite clearly that women as a group have lost more jobs than any other section in the community.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, does the noble Earl recall the many speeches made by Government spokesmen in the other place linking the rate of inflation to the rate of unemployment and saying that if inflation came down unemployment would also come down? As inflation has come down but unemployment has gone up, is there another explanation?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, this is precisely the point which the Government would never lose an opportunity to seek to make clear. The falls in the levels of inflation have coincided with a marked improvement in the rates of increase in unemployment levels. For instance, although it takes some time to feed through, over the past six months there has been an average monthly rise of 4,000, compared with an average monthly rise of 21,000 in the six months previously. Allowing for the two-year or one and a half year time lag that most economists now bargain for, that is a very startling effect indeed, and it is thoroughly to be wished that it continues.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, in the light of what my noble friend has said about juvenile unemployment—which I think many of us regard as socially the worst of all forms of unemployment—may I ask whether the Government have given consideration to the effect on it of the practice of the remaining wages councils of fixing rates of pay for juveniles very close to the adult rate?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, in December the Department of Employment published a research paper which conclusively showed that there was a relation between levels of pay on offer and the incidence of unemployment among young people. I hope that noble Lords in all parts of the House will reflect their concern about unemployment among the young or any other groups in society by seeking to persuade those who influence pay bargaining.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, would not the noble Earl agree—

Noble Lords
Order, Order!

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. Is the noble Earl aware that untypically he has not answered the Question on the Order Paper? The Question asked for the figures for unemployment and the noble Earl gave us the figures for claimants. Is he able to tell us the total number of unemployed in the country?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I am not able to state that with precision because of course the only measure we have is those who claim. But it is certainly the case that without the very large sums of public money that the Government spend in order to help those who are suffering the evil of unemployment, the figure would be substantially higher.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that—as he has suggested—noble Lords on all sides of the House are deeply concerned about unemployment among the youth and that we are not particularly upset that there may be some who are employed and are under the protection of the wages councils? Would that they were all employed and under the protection of the wages councils! I think that every Member of the House would agree with that. Is the noble Earl also aware that some of the schemes on which the Government have embarked are not producing results? Will he please be prepared to consider the setting up of a national council, comprising representatives of the CBI, the TUC and other parts of industry, as well as some scientific experts and experts from our universities, who might be able to make a contribution as to what is required in order to get our youth gainfully employed?

The Earl of Gowrie
Alas, my Lords, words do not create jobs; would that it were so! The fact of the matter is that only a stable currency and the recovery of the whole of the West from a very deep recession will actually generate more jobs in the real world.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, before we develop a national inferiority complex on this subject, when considering unemployment, which is rife all over Europe, ought it not to be borne in mind that our schemes for alleviating it are becoming the envy of the other countries? Ought not the other side of the coin to be taken into account? That is, that per thousand of the population this country has more people in employment than has any other European country, except Denmark.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I certainly agree with my noble friend that it does not help employment in this country if we persistently talk ourselves down. Of the 20 OECD countries for which regular unemployment figures are available, in the past 12 months only five had lower percentage increases than the United Kingdom. During that period unemployment has risen by 25 per cent, in Norway; 16 per cent, in Ireland; 15 per cent, in Spain; 12 per cent, in the Netherlands; 10 per cent, in Italy; 9 per cent, in Denmark; 5 per cent, in Belgium; and 4 per cent. here.

Lord Dunleath
My Lords, in view of the fact that the rate of unemployment in Northern Ireland is 627 considerably higher than in any other region of the United Kingdom, and in the light of the substantial amount of public funds invested in the ex-De Lorean factory near Belfast, which was purpose built for the manufacture and assembly of motor-cars, but which is now lying idle, will not the noble Earl agree that there is now what amounts to a moral obligation on Her Majesty's Government to do their best to direct the Nissan car plant to that factory?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, as a fellow Irishman, I admire the noble Lord's ingenuity, but that is another Question.

§ Lord Blyton
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us regard the figures on unemployment in this country that have been given today by the Government as ridiculous because we consider that the Government are manipulating the figures of total unemployment, which we consider to be at least 5 million?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, in a previous reply I pointed out to the House—and I hope that as a courtesy to me the noble Lord will check this—that without the very considerable sums of money from central funds which the Government are spending on this great problem and evil, the rates of unemployment would be considerably higher than they are.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, does the noble Earl have available figures regarding the level of unemployment among the registered disabled? May I also ask him whether, as an example to other employers, Government departments are continuing to employ the appropriate percentage of registered disabled people?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, if the noble Lord will put that down as a Question I shall do my best to answer it.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, can the Minister assure us that the number of places available under the community programme represents, in the Government's view, an adequate response to the increasing number of people aged between 18 and 24 who have now been unemployed for more than 12 months?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, it is very much my view that the best way in which we can help the long-term unemployed is by setting the economy to rights and creating the conditions for higher rates of growth. But help is available through the community programme which is now providing up to 130,000 temporary jobs. Naturally, I would wish that help to be extended, but we have to take into account that the spending that would improve such a figure would also be to the detriment of recovery generally.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the noble Earl not aware that his answer to the very pointed question of the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, indicates clearly that the figure of claimants that he has given on behalf 628 of the Government is a grossly understated figure in regard to the actual problem of unemployment and that most responsible sources consider it to be a million more? Is the Minister aware that, apart from youths whom he described as the main problem of unemployment, there are also people in the 30 to 40 age bracket who may never work again in view of the rate at which unemployment figures are proceeding at present? When will the Government really take on board the views of bodies such as the CBI, the TUC and even the Institute of Directors, which suggest a reflation of the economy to deal with this appalling problem?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I am not sure whether the CBI or the Institute of Directors have been seeking a generalised reflation of the economy which in a trading economy such as ours could have a pretty adverse effect on unemployment and other areas. Leaving that point aside, I thought that I had made clear to the noble Lord and to the House that I think the overall problem of unemployment would be rather greater were the Government not tackling the matter in the way that they are.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, can the noble Earl give the figure of the total number of unemployed claimants who have been claiming supplementary benefit for more than a year and how many children they are responsible for supporting?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I think that I would need prior notice to answer that question.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, in view of the Minister's original Answer that it is youth which forms the highest part of unemployment, would he not agree that apprenticeship is a sure way to employment as shown by the youth schemes in Germany and Austria? Will he say whether he is satisfied that British firms offer as many apprenticeships as possible?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I agree that that is an entirely laudable objective. But for British firms to offer more apprenticeships they have to be secure in the knowledge of more orders. They have, in short, to be more competitive. Government policies are designed to create a climate in which they can become more competitive.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, I wish to put a very brief question. What do the Government intend to do to reduce the number of unemployed?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, as I think I said in my first supplementary, to create a stable financial environment and to operate both nationally and internationally in a disciplined manner so that the Western world can come out of a largely self-induced recession.