Lord WinstanleyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it was their intention when introducing the new statutory sick pay scheme that people should now qualify for statutory sick pay who would not have qualified for sick pay under the old national insurance regulations.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Glenarthur)Yes, my Lords, there are two such groups. First, there are the married women and widows who have opted to pay the reduced rate national insurance contribution. The rate of this contribution has been increased to finance their entitlement to statutory sick pay. Secondly, there are some employees whose current earnings qualify them for statutory sick pay but whose contribution record is insufficient to qualify them for sickness benefit.
Lord WinstanleyMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. May I ask him whether he is aware that noble Lords on this side of the House are always very glad indeed to learn of any generous gesture made by the Government at the moment, even when, as some of us suspected in this case, that gesture has been made by mistake? But it would appear that this has been done on purpose. So that we can know the extent of the Government's generosity, will the noble Lord be in a position to tell us at some time how much the Government have taken in by way of increased contributions from these people and how much they have paid out by way of statutory sick pay? That will enable us to know whether the Government have actually made a profit.
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord feels that it has been a generous gesture. It was certainly on purpose that it was done in this way. So far as figures are concerned, as the noble Lord will appreciate it is a little early yet, but at the end of the year there will be a return and that will tell us how much statutory sick pay had been paid out in the financial year. Perhaps when I have those details I can let the noble Lord know.
§ Baroness JegerMy Lords, we on this side are very glad when anyone gets any money from the Government for anything. May I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he can tell the House about the number of exclusions—the completions of the exclusion form, the SSP1E? This entitles an employer not to pay sick pay under this scheme. Also, what information can the noble Lord give the House about non-payment of SSI?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I do not think that I can give the noble Baroness information on the SSP1E, but I shall certainly find out and let her know. Will the noble Baroness repeat the second part of her supplementary question?
§ Baroness JegerMy Lords, it was to ask whether the noble Lord will be able to tell the House at some time about the number of exclusions and the effect on employees of these regulations, which relate mainly to low pay.
§ Lord GlenarthurYes, my Lords, in due course; but of course, the figures are not fully available yet. When they are, I shall let the noble Baroness know.
§ Baroness Macleod of BorveMy Lords, may ask my noble friend whether he is aware that until this scheme started widows were unable to claim sickness benefit at all because of the overlapping benefit rule, and that throughout the country they are most indebted to the Government for bringing in the scheme?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, national insurance widows have always been able to claim and qualify for sickness benefit under the normal rules; but, as my noble friend says, the amount of benefit payable is limited under the overlapping benefit provisions to the greater of the sickness benefit and the widow's benefit. It is not really a question of having gained entitlement, but it is certainly a question of having gained more money.