Hampstead Heath and Kenwood House: Administration (Hansard, 13 December 1984)

§ Lord Cottesloe
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (The Earl of Avon)
My Lords, on abolition of the GLC, it is planned that responsibility for the administration of Hampstead Heath will be transferred to the boroughs in which it lies. Account will be taken of such transferred functions when the post-abolition financial arrangements for London are determined. The heath would thus be in the care of directly elected and adequately financed authorities.
Kenwood House is to be transferred, with its grounds, to the care of the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission, whose grant in aid will reflect the additional responsibilities of running and managing this property. I am sure the commission will wish to bear in mind the close relationship between the grounds and the heath in considering its future management of the property, and will wish to discuss appropriate arrangements with the local authorities concerned.

Lord Cottlesloe
My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that, although his answer as regards Kenwood House will meet with general approval, his answer with regard to Hampstead Heath will spread a good deal of alarm and despondency?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his response in the first part of his question. So far as the second part of his question is concerned, I hope that, equally, the House will give weight to the idea of local boroughs looking after their own parks.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, can the noble Earl clarify his use of the word "boroughs" when he talked of boroughs having the responsibility? Does that mean that Hampstead Heath will come under more than one borough and that there will be split authority over it?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, although the majority of Hampstead Heath is within the borough of Camden, there are parts of it within the borough of Barnet and a small amount in the borough of Haringey.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, following the Minister's answers to the two noble Lords, may I ask whether he is aware that two of the three boroughs that will be looking after Hampstead Heath will be rate-capped next year? Can he give assurances that his department will provide continuing funds to preserve the present high standard of maintenance and conservation of Hampstead Heath? Further, do not the events that took place in another place last night reflect strong and passionate support for an elected authority for our capital city, which is the appropriate body to run Kenwood and Hampstead Heath together?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I must confess that I was wondering how the noble Baroness was going to get that over! In answer to her first question, the rate support grant will continue to equalise the rate poundage cost to ratepayers, providing a standard level of service which will include the parks provisions. Regarding the vote last night, that is a different question to the matter concerning the running of Hampstead Heath. I personally should very much like to see that done by the boroughs.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, if the local authorities administering Hampstead Heath cannot agree, who has the final say? I understand that such a situation has arisen already in Wimbledon.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, to start with, we shall of course be debating this subject when it comes to the House in the spring. Secondly, there is a residuary body which will be set up to iron out such problems.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, may I warmly support the spirit of the Question put by the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, as one who, I am sure along with many of your Lordships, has enjoyed the amenities of Hampstead Heath for many years? May I ask the noble Earl a particular question arising out of his Answer? If a number of borough councils —in this case, I believe, three—are to be responsible for Hampstead Heath, who will decide whether such events as the excellent series of open air concerts held on the part of the heath surrounding Kenwood will continue, and who will be responsible for their continuing finance?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am happy to tell the noble Lord that the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission, which is taking on Kenwood House, is intending to keep the concerts going. It wishes to maintain the present standards and even try to improve them.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, can the noble Earl the Minister say whether consideration has been given to much the simplest way of solving this matter; namely, that Camden, which has the largest part of the heath, should run it and that those parts that belong to two other boroughs should be transfered to Camden by the local government boundary commission?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, that sounds delightfully simple in this House, but I can assure the noble Lord that if he went to Barnet he would have a very rough reception.

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, when my noble friend replied about the concerts, did he mean the lakeside concerts or simply the ones in Kenwood House? The question of the lakeside concerts is very important.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, was referring to the lakeside concerts, and certainly my reply was directed to them.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, may I return to the point that the Minister made—that the vote last night was on a different subject? It was not a different subject, because this is an absolutely prime example of something for which an elected authority for London must be responsible.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I take the noble Baroness's point, and I hope that she will also accept mine when I say that Hampstead Heath could well be run by the local authority and its borough, which in this case is Camden.

§ Lord Cottesloe
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the boroughs concerned, Barnet and Camden, are not on speaking terms?

§ The Earl of Avon
Indeed, my Lords, it is quite difficult to get a response from Camden.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, in that case, is it not clear that there ought to be some authority that can bang their heads together; namely, some sort of elected authority to cover the strategic matters of Greater London?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I hope that when we have an opportunity to debate this matter, perhaps at Committee stage, Parliament will be able to do just that.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, does the noble Earl recall that in a recent debate I asked a question similar to this concerning Hainault Forest, where there are two golf courses in three separate local authority areas and a wild forest with a large number of verderers and park keepers? Is he saying that the cost of all that is to fall on those particular authorities and not on London as a whole?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I apologise for the fact that I do not have the answer to the question on Hainault Forest. I remember that the noble Lord raised that matter last time. Whereas I have walked over Hampstead Heath and paced the acreage, I am afraid that I have not yet done so in Hainault Forest.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, in relation to the reply that the noble Earl gave me, if we are to wait for further debates, why are the Government bringing forward a statutory order next week to abolish the GLC elections?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I think that that is another question which can wait until next Tuesday.