HL Deb 01 August 1984 vol 455 cc791-4

2.54 p.m.

Lord Moyne

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the National Coal Board, in planning the closure of pits they consider uneconomic, took into account the cost to the Exchequer in unemployment benefits which would result from closures at this present time; and whether, where any closure would cause an overall loss to the nation in the short term, a moratorium might not be agreed until unemployment falls or coal consumption increases.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (The Earl of Avon)

My Lords, the closure of any colliery is subject to the industry's colliery review procedure, and is only undertaken after the most careful consideration. The National Coal Board is now making huge losses; nearly £2 billion in the last four years. A substantial part of this loss was caused by excess production from a relatively small tail of highly uneconomic pits, and no Government could possibly agree to go on financing losses on that scale without remedial action being taken.

Lord Moyne

My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for his Answer, may I ask him whether or not he can endorse the promise of the Secretary of State for Energy regarding the mining industry and those thrown out of work by pit closures? It was an undertaking which was announced to the press the day after I had tabled my Question—post hoc but assuredly not propter hoc. Can the noble Earl give any assurances in the context of that statement regarding the phasing of closures, help for families which have to move and support, in the provision of houses, for the local authorities concerned?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I readily endorse what was said by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy. I can also underline that there are generous removal allowances which are already paid by the National Coal Board to men who transfer to other pits following a closure or manpower reduction. Men who move, so far that they have to move house, receive full reimbursement of expenses associated with the move, including such costs as introductory visits, removal expenses and solicitors' fees.

Lord Barnett

My Lords, noting that the noble Earl endorses the views of his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy, does he also endorse the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that virtually any expense would be worthwhile on an industrial dispute, no matter at what level, in order to ensure the closure of what he calls "uneconomic pits"?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his statement in the other place earlier today, the dispute has probably added net some £300 million to £350 million to public expenditure so far this year: otherwise his comments were in support of Government policy.

Lord Molloy

Would the noble Earl agree that prewar and post-war there have been occasions when we have closed pits which later we have been desperately keen to reopen because their value cannot be counted in pounds, shillings and pence at any one time? Would the Government consider establishing a specialist board comprising geologists, mining engineers, energy economists, and miners' representatives to examine the wealth and future of Great Britain's pits, and the policy of closing those which are at present under threat?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I note the suggestion of the noble Lord, but I should like to remind him that the Labour Government not only accepted the principle that uneconomic pits should close but embodied it in legislation by providing in the 1977 Coal Industry Act for social grants to be paid to assist in the closure of pits of uneconomic capacity.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, would the noble Earl be good enough to clarify the answer which he gave to my noble friend, Lord Barnett? Will he say whether he believes that the £300 million to £350 million cost of the strike so far has been, to quote the Chancellor of the Exchequer "a worthwhile investment"?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I do not have a copy of this morning's Hansard, so I cannot refer to what the noble Lord says. I know of the charges made in the other place, but they seemed to me to be explained by the desperation of those making them at the embarrassing stories which they have to tell.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, would the noble Earl answer the first question, which I think was: are the National Coal Board asked to take into account the nation's losses when they are looking at the economic viability of a pit? That, I think, was the original Question.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords,in my original reply I said that pit closures were only undertaken after most careful consideration, and I referred to the cause of a substantial part of the loss.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, is it not a fact that, as a result of this particular strike, the Government and the nation have lost—including the loss of coal mined—some £2,000 million, and that is a great deal of money? Can the noble Earl say whether the Government will consider bearing in mind that by the end of the century we shall need 40 per cent. more coal? Will he say whether the Government are prepared to make new approaches to the miners and to the National Coal Board with a view to keeping pits open on a care and maintenance basis? Will he also say exactly what the Government are going to do while this House is in recess for the next 10 or 11 weeks?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I do not associate myself with the figures produced by the noble Lord. I should like to say to him that this Government have invested more in the coal industry than his Government did and we continue to put our deeds where our mouth is. We will continue to invest in and to back the coal industry. We look forward to the time when the coal conversion scheme gets off the ground again.

I suggest that during the Recess we can hope that the harassment and intimidation that is going on throughout the country will stop and that the miners will have the ability to make their own decisions.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

But, my Lords, the situation may get infinitely worse during the Recess, both in social and political terms. Will the Government give an assurance that, if necessary, Parliament will be recalled?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, it is not for me to answer that question: that is for the usual channels. But I believe that the message we can take to the country is, "End harassment, end intimidation, and let the miners make their own choice".

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, is not criticism rather rich from a party which has nailed its colours to the mast of Mr. Scargill, whose object is to create unemployment for political purposes?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I remind the House there are many miners working at this time as well.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that the baying from the Benches behind him will not help to settle this dispute? What is required is not just hope and statements; what is required is statesmanship on the part of the Government in getting together with the two parties concerned.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I should like to see the ballot which has been called for. I do not see why one should not be held.

Lord De Freyne

My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister say what it costs per tonne to find coal in this country compared with any other country in the Common Market, at today's rates?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, the average price of coal in our country is at the moment around £40 per tonne, as against the best we can get out at £28, which compares with other imported coal which comes to Thames-side slightly cheaper than that.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the Minister aware that he is absolutely correct when he says that goverments of all complexions have exhibited appalling myopia in dealing with an industry they knew very little about? We closed pits before the war and the person who opened them for us, because we needed those pits, happened to be Hitler. Since the war we have closed pits, and then because of energy crises we have had to reopen them as well.

Will the Minister bear in mind that, until the present dispute, the industrial record of British miners, according to a United Nations survey, was the best? When the Minister speaks of contributions made by governments to the coal industry, will he remember that none of them comes near to the massive contribution made by the coal mining communities of Britain to this great industry?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am happy to pay tribute to the coal mining industry; just as the noble Lord has done. I hope very much that it gets together, and holds a ballot, and works at full force.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, will the Minister answer the question put by his noble friend: what is the cost of British coal compared with the cost of coal mined in the Common Market? If he cannot answer that question, I will do it for him.

The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)

My Lords, I think it must be accepted that we are about to debate many of these problems for the rest of the afternoon. I hope that the noble Lord opposite and the rest of the House will realise that that is the point at which it will be possible to produce such arguments. We have already spent a considerable part of Question Time and I feel that we should go on to the last Question, and then come to the debate.