§ 2.44 p.m.
§ Lord KilmarnockMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what Medical Research Council units have been closed or are threatened with closure.
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, the Medical Research Council reviews the future of all of its units from time to time, generally when a unit director is due to retire. Over the past eight years, 22 units have been closed, and a further three willl close shortly. I understand that the future of a further five units is under consideration by the council and that decisions on two of these will be taken in October. I might add that during the same period 14 new units have been established; another will be established in the autumn.
§ Lord KilmarnockMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his Answer. May I ask him whether or not it is the case that the Advisory Body for Research Councils initially guaranteed level funding to the Medical Research Council for 1984–85 but that the outturn in real terms will be £2 million less than in the current year? Is it not also the case that the Medical Research Council is being required to contribute to redundancies in other research councils? Is it right that moneys voted by Parliament for medical research should be used for this end? Why should not the 788 research councils as a whole be given the same benefit as the universities, of having their redundancies met from other funds?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock, was perfectly correct in what he said in the first part of his supplementary question: that the Medical Research Council's grant-in-aid for 1984–85 represents very approximately the same share of the science budget as in 1983–84. However, the council is having to accommodate within its cash limits some unavoidable increases in expenditure, such as an actuarial increase in the employers' superannuation contribution and an increase arising from the formula for calculating subscriptions to international bodies. Therefore, it faces a drop in disposable income, which it estimates might be about £2 million. As far as paying for the restructuring of other councils is concerned, the Advisory Body for the Research Councils has provisionally recommended that the Medical Research Council should make contributions towards the cost of necessary restructuring at the AFRC and NERC during 1985–86 and 1986–87. Final advice on the allocation of the science budget in 1985–86 will be given by the ABRC later this year. In the light of that advice, my right honourable friend will make an announcement on allocations.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is in the public interest that the number of people who are horn mentally handicapped should be reduced; that there are very many causes of mental handicap, and that it is only by continuing research into it that those causes can be isolated and prevented? Will my noble friend give an undertaking that there will be no diminution of research effort into the causes of mental handicap?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Renton, but I cannot make the statement that he wishes because, as I said in my original Answer, the future of a number of units is being considered.
§ Lord Hunter of NewingtonMy Lords, does the Minister agree that a further consequence is that the Medical Research Council will have to notify the universities that support for some of their outstanding work will have to cease, and that therefore some of this work will have to be abandoned?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I am not sure about that. As I understand it, one of the points that the Medical Research Council is making is that it is determined to increase its support for more high-quality research in universities. That is one of the reasons why it is making some economies.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, in addition to the advisory council, would the Minister be prepared to consider taking into account the views of the BMA and other interested medical bodies? Does he agree that their views, as well as those of the universities, should be garnered and gathered in, in the interests of providing first-class research for the National Health Service?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, a large impact on research is made by a number of bodies, quite apart from the Medical Research Council. Biomedical research is carried out by the universities and medical schools, using the funds provided for teaching and research through the University Grants Committee. I ought also to mention the extremely valuable contribution that is made by the private and charitable sectors.
§ Lord ToddMy Lords, does the noble Earl realise that, whatever anyone may say about the statistics, spanning about £2 million, the fact is that the closure of four units by the Medical Research Council this year will be due essentially to lack of money and that it is just a symptom of what will happen: that more units will be closed unless something is done, and done pretty quickly, to restore some, at least, of the damaging cuts which have been made in the budget of the Medical Research Council and also in the grants made to the universities? I do not want to throw this open to science in general, but let us just think about the kind of things which the Medical Research Council supports. In the case of molecular biology—
§ Lord ToddYes, it is coming, my Lords. Molecular biology, in which we used to be pre-eminent, though now, I am afraid, we are not, is now moving into clinical medicine, and through biotechnology it is moving into industry. I should like to know whether the Government are aware of this fact and whether they are going to do anything to restore the cuts which have been made, and which have resulted not merely in a loss of morale but in many of our young people going abroad to make their careers and use their talents; because if it is not, then in a matter of a few years' time we are going to appear among the also-rans in a world where social change has occurred on a very great scale.
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I am not quite sure from where the noble Lord, Lord Todd, obtained his figures about four units closing this year. As I understand it, the three units which are due to close shortly are: the dental unit; the unit for the laboratory studies of tuberculosis; and the tuberculosis and chest diseases unit. The last two are to be replaced by a new TB and related infections unit which is due to open in October. As to the other units, there is no definite decision to be made until October. I know that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science is very well aware of the financial difficulties which the council face. I should, however, emphasise that no decision on the level of funding for the council for the next few years will be made until later this year.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, does the Minister agree that research into the treatment and cure of diseases is as vital to the national interest as research into industrial development is vital for the economic outlook of this country? Does he not feel a deep sense of concern because there will be £2 million less available for 790 medical research for the various reasons which he gave the House? Will he not indicate to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State the degree of concern which has been expressed from all sides of the House this afternoon regarding cuts in medical research? Surely, this is something which no Government would willingly want to do.
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I am well aware that any cut in medical research is an unhappy state of affairs because of the amount of valuable work which is done. At the same time, I should say that medical research is a very emotive subject and the amount of money which can be spent on it is bottomless; you can go on researching for ever if you wish. I know that my right honourable friend is concerned about this matter, and I shall certainly draw his attention to the questions which have been asked in the House this afternoon.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether there is any intention to close the unit which researches into the safety of vaccines administered to children?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I am certainly not aware of any such proposals.
§ Lord KilmarnockMy Lords, can the noble Earl the Minister explain how a Government professing commitment to the pursuit of excellence are contributing to the brain drain—unless, of course, they are to review their policies? Is it not the case that there are important commercial spin-offs from medical research as in the case of the promotion by Seltec of monoclonal antibodies? Following what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, will the noble Earl reaffirm his undertaking to bring to the notice of the Secretary of State the widespread concern about this matter which has been expressed on all sides of your Lordships' House?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, with all due respect to the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock, I have undertaken to do that and I think I am a man of my word; at any rate, I like to think so. When I say that I shall do something, I like to think that I will do it. As to this great fuss about the cuts, I must point out that the council's 1984–1985 grant-in-aid is £117.2 million compared with £113.7 million in 1983–84.
§ Lord KilmarnockMy Lords, before the noble Earl sits down—
§ Lord Kilmarnock—would he not agree that that represents a cut in real terms?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I think that is just about level pegging.