HL Deb 12 April 1984 vol 450 cc1273-5

11.8 a.m.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the event of a US cruise missile being launched by mistake from British soil, the Soviet Union will be informed by the United States hot-line or the British one.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces: (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, the safeguards surrounding the use and custody of nuclear weapons effectively preclude the possibility of a cruise missile being launched by mistake, and the noble Lord's proposition is therefore hypothetical. The use of hot-lines is not restricted to questions involving nuclear weapons nor to particular hypothetical scenarios.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, is it not nevertheless a hypothesis, however remote, which ought to be considered? Can the noble Lord assure the House that it has been considered and that at least the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence know the answer to this remote eventuality and are satisfied with it?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we keep all the realistic scenarios, however hypothetical, in mind; and so the answer to his question must be yes.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, would my noble friend consider whether the description of US cruise missile is an accurate one? Would it not be more accurate to say on the Order Paper, "cruise missiles deployed on United Kingdom bases as a result of NATO's request to the USA"?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, my noble friend may well be right, but then the wording of Questions on the Order Paper is not a matter for me.

Lord Bishopston

My Lords, unless the Minister can give an absolute assurance that there will never be a mistake in the firing of these or any nuclear weapons, surely the Government must have an emergency procedure Is the Minister still aware that the Korean airliner disaster, or incident, was one where we still do not know really what happened? As there could be a mistake either by human or mechanical means, have the Government no fallback position? If a weapon was fired by mistake, how is one to know before escalation takes place whether that is so? In the case of a mistake or otherwise, would the Prime Minister or the President be consulted? What happens if the Prime Minister is at the hairdressers having her hair done for Easter and the President is at a baseball match? How will they be briefed and consulted in a matter of four minutes to avoid disaster?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am lost in admiration for the noble Lord's fertile imagination As for the question of launching nuclear weapons from this country, that is subject to the procedures with which your Lordships are by now well familiar and which I have described to your Lordships on a number of occasions.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, have the Government taken into account the fact that the CIA appears to have an independent capability of waging war? What action would we take in the case of the CIA exercising that capability here?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, again the noble Lord's imagination seems to have run away with him Of course the CIA has no role in this country.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, this is not a matter of imagination, it is a question of reading the newspapers.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, is not the important point in this Question that the hot line should be kept perpetually warmed up so that if any missile, particularly a Russian one, should accidentally be launched, everybody would scream their heads off?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, that is precisely the purpose for which the hot lines have been established.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does the noble Lord the Minister not agree that even those who support the fact that cruise missiles ought to be on this island of ours are nevertheless quite genuinely apprehensive that accidents could happen? They are equally apprehensive about what might happen if a cruise missile were deliberately launched. There would no doubt be retaliation, and what would happen then?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the purpose of nuclear weapons, so far as the Western alliance is concerned, is to deter the prospect of anyone launching an attack on us. They have succeeded in that way for the past 40 years.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is it not a fact that they will in no way agree that they will not be the first to use a nuclear missile? So what the Minister has just said is directly contrary to what has been said by the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence in another place.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, what we have said is that we would never be the first to use any weapon, nuclear or otherwise.

Lord Bishopston

My Lords, will the hot line be via British Telecom privatised or under public control? If a mistake takes place and escalation follows, will the Minister promise to come to the House the next day to report on the situation?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am not sure whether that is meant to be a serious supplementary question; but I can assure the noble Lord that the arrangements are now well established and have worked well for a great many years.

Lord Gladwyn

My Lords, did I hear the noble Lord aright when he said that we would never, in any circumstances, be the first to use nuclear weapons, or indeed any other kind of weapon, but in any case a nuclear weapon? Is that what he said?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I said that our undertaking goes further than just not being the first to use nuclear weapons, it is not to be the first to use a weapon of any kind.

Lord Gladwyn

Therefore, including a nuclear weapon, my Lords?