§ 2.44 p.m.
§ Baroness NicolMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what effect restrictions on local government spending are having on the functioning of the magistrates' courts.
§ The Lord ChancellorMy Lords, the magistrates' courts service is financed as to 80 per cent. by a specific grant and has thus largely been protected from the general pressure to cut expenditure. It goes without saying, however, that the magistrates' courts are not exempt from the continuing need for economy.
§ Baroness NicolMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for that reply. However, is he aware that in at least one area of the country the effect of the cuts on the magistrates' court is that the police have been asked to reduce their input of cases to that court by 15 per cent.? Is the noble and learned Lord further aware that the enforcement of arrears in that same area is almost at a standstill? Therefore, the alternative to prison, which is available to the magistrates, has ceased to mean anything.
§ The Lord ChancellorMy Lords, I am not aware of the particular area to which the noble Baroness refers. If she will give me some evidence about it, I shall have it looked into. However. I think that the noble Baroness should bear in mind that the current expenditure on magistrates' courts between 1979 and estimated 1985–86 has gone up from £72 million to £93 million, to £107 million, to £118 million, to £129 million, to £135 million, to £140 million. There are 19 major court systems already in the plans up to 1985–86 and I have 31 more in the pipeline.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, can my noble and learned friend say whether anybody anywhere has the power to tell the police to reduce what is called their "input" when they are carrying out their duty?
§ The Lord ChancellorMy Lords, I am just waiting to see what the noble Baroness tells me in answer to my invitation.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, notwithstanding the impressive statistics produced by the noble and learned Lord, is he aware that, in addition to the complaint made by my noble friend, probation officers throughout the country are deeply concerned about the effect of these economies upon the probation service? Is he aware that the community service, which indeed the Government so keenly support, is also affected by these economies? Would the noble and learned Lord be prepared to make his own inquiries to find out whether these important services are affected?
§ The Lord ChancellorMy Lords, I should hardly have described a rise from £72 million to £140 million as economy. The Question I was asked refers to the functioning of the magistrates' courts. If the noble Lord on the Opposition Front Bench puts down a Question about the probation service or the community service, I think that they would be very suitable subjects for a Question. I must say in parenthesis that, although I am answering for the Government, as all Ministers do, the noble Lord is as well aware as I am that this is a Home Office question and if my noble friend Lord Elton were here he would probably be more forthcoming than I am.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, in his original reply the noble and learned Lord said that 80 per cent. of the expenditure on magistrates' courts comes from central Government funds, which means that the remaining 20 per cent. is financed by the local authorities. In fact, he did not answer the noble Baroness's Question as to what effect the restrictions on local government spending had had on that 20 per cent. I wonder whether he would address his mind to that question.
§ The Lord ChancellorMy Lords, that extra 20 per cent. is not entirely financed by local authorities. It comes out of the rate support grant which, as the noble Lord knows, is very largely central Government money from a different source. However, the short answer to the noble Lord's question is that if there is any effect on the magistrates' courts, it must surely be purely marginal.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, while the whole House will be most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the current costs which he has supplied to the House, is he in a position to help the House by giving the realistic figures—that is to say, the comparison at constant prices?
§ The Lord ChancellorNo, my Lords, I am not. However, if the noble Lord tables a Question to that effect, he shall surely have an excellent answer from my noble friend.
§ Baroness Macleod of BorveMy Lords, in reference to the answer given by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, can he confirm that it is now policy to replace police court staff with civilian staff in magistrates' courts?
§ The Lord ChancellorMy Lords, I could not without notice, but I think that the answer is, Yes.
Earl FortescueMy Lords, are the Government aware that the problem outlined by the noble Baroness does not apply in Oxfordshire, which is the only county about which I am in a position to speak? Any reasonable request from the magistrates' courts committee in that county is almost always agreed to by the county council.
§ The Lord ChancellorMy Lords, I am glad to hear what my noble friend says, but I do not think we can go through the country area by area.
§ Baroness NicolMy Lords, the global figures given by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor are convincing, but nevertheless the local interpretation is what matters in the application of law and order. Will the noble and learned Lord therefore agree that if I write to him—he will understand that I do not wish to name this area because it would be an invitation to crime in that area—he will perhaps investigate this matter?
§ The Lord ChancellorMy Lords, the matter will be investigated, but by my noble friend Lord Elton.