Heating Allowances for the Elderly (Hansard, 29 November 1983)

§ Lord Hill of Luton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Glenarthur)
My Lords, the Supplementary Benefit (Housing Benefit) (Requirements and Resources) Consequential Amendments Regulations 1982, approved by your Lordships on 30th July 1982, introduced some changes to the rules governing help to supplementary benefit claimants who pay for their heating with their rent. As part of these changes, claimants who pay a fixed charge for their heating and who do not need any extra heating can no longer receive extra heating additions. In the Government's view, it would not have been right to have continued paying those heating additions to claimants who did not need to pay for extra heating over and above that provided by the fixed charge.

§ Lord Hill of Luton
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the relevant part of the regulations which he has quoted is so obscure as to suggest that only the draftsman can understand it? Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that neither of the Ministers who, in this House and the other place, put these regulations to Parliament for approval made the slightest reference to the power which they apparently give to reduce the incomes of some elderly and infirm persons who need 558 additional heating by almost £2 a week, and that that was done without explanation or warning?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am afraid I must agree with the noble Lord when he says that the rules are complex: complex they certainly are. So far as his second point is concerned, the change in the supplementary benefit rules did not take heating additions away from claimants who needed extra heating. The only losers (if that is the right word) are people whose landlords provide full heating for a fixed charge. In those cases that charge is fully reflected in the housing benefit they receive.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in addition to the valid and important points made a moment ago by the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, there is also a grave anxiety arising among the poor, the crippled, the invalid and the elderly as to how the Government are going to help them when the increases in gas and electricity take place? Can the noble Lord give the House some indication of what help will be afforded to those in the categories I have mentioned when the increases take place?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, the Government are spending well over £350 million this year on extra help with heating costs for those most in need. These supplementary benefit heating additions have just been increased in line with the increase in fuel prices to May of this year, which was 8.6 per cent., and are now at their highest ever level in real terms. They should, as in the past, be increased again next year in the light of increases in fuel prices, to which the noble Lord referred, during the 12 months ending May 1984.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that much of the confusion has arisen because the implementation of the supplementary benefit regulations and the changes to the heating additions made in the supplementary benefit regulations were introduced at the same time as the partial operation of the housing benefit scheme? This has caused a great deal of confusion. Is he aware that that confusion has been made worse because many local authorities up and down the country put different interpretations on the regulations depending on their particular policy arrangements? Is he further aware that this has meant that many elderly people have lost heating additions of up to £4.65 per week in some areas? Does he agree with me that the time is now right for the introduction of a comprehensive fuel strategy covering all fuels and all aspects, including insulation and conservation, and with a mind to the ever-increasing punitive burden of standing charges on elderly people?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I think that the answer to the last supplementary that the noble Lord asked was covered when I answered his noble friend Lord Molloy. To go to the first part, housing benefit has of course resulted in a reduction in supplementary benefit payments to some people because their housing requirements are now met by the local authority. Although this may have meant that some claimants needed to make changes to their budgeting arrangements, the introduction of housing benefit has 559 not, in itself, affected the sum which claimants have available for living expenses.
The noble Lord also asked about the difficulties (I think that was his word) in the transfer to the local authorities of this responsibility. It is true that at the end of July roughly 20 per cent. of all authorities had not fully completed the changeover to housing benefit, but even at that time the cases outstanding amounted to only 5 per cent. of the total number of claimants involved.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, have the Government made any calculation of the cost to the public utilities of abolishing standing charges for pensioners?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am sorry, but I did not hear the last part of the noble Lords' question.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, my question was whether the Government have made any calculation of the cost to the public utilities in this country of abolishing the standing charges for pensioners.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, not that I know; but if there is one, I shall let the noble Lord have it.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, to avoid adding to the difficulties and complexities outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, and my noble friend behind me, in so far as the gas authorities and the electricity authorities say, and have told the Government, that they do not want to increase prices, is it not obvious that the thing for the Government to do is not to put up the prices, and not to give people the problem of trying to work out how to get the extra couple of shillings to pay for the increases, but to stop the increases? Is that not the real answer?

§ Lord Glenarthur
No, my Lords. Apart from anything else, that is rather a different question. I should say again to the noble Lord that the sums of money which this Government are spending are over £350 million a year, which are far higher than the sums spent by any previous Government. We introduced extensions to the criteria for the payment of heating additions in 1980 so that pensioners over 70, or families with children under five and on supplementary benefit, now get a heating addition automatically.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that what he refers to euphemistically as "adjusting their budgeting arrangements" means the difference between getting by and poverty, penury, and hypothermia for tens of thousands of old people this winter? Is this not a disgusting and disgraceful thing for this Government to do?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am afraid that the noble Lord is overstating the case. The fact remains that those who lose out (if that is a form of words which is acceptable to the noble Lord) are those who were in fact over-provided for in the first case.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is it not a fact that, although the noble Minister has made a great 560 boast about the additional assistance given to pensioners, that assistance is in fact limited. as he said, to those in certain categories? People between the ages of 65 and 80 get very cold indeed, and need additional assistance as well. As my noble friend Lord Molloy said the fact that additional charges are going to be levied on all people. including pensioners, through the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in relation to the gas and electricity industries, is going to cause much distress and heart-searching to many old people. Will the noble Minister respond to the request by my noble friend that the Government look at this again and allow the electricity and gas corporations to hold prices for another year?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, that really is another question, and I do not think it is one that I ought to go into now. Of course, as I said just now, the increases that take place in the prices in both the gas and electricity industries will be reflected in the rises that take place inline with inflation up to May next year.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, we shall have a chance of discussing these matters further in the debate next week. But, arising out of the Question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, and without going into the rights or wrongs of the matter, does the Minister feel able to accept that, whatever the Government may have explained. the matter is not clear to many people who are involved, who are terribly worried about this and have difficulty in paying their bills at present? Would the Minister feel able to ask his right honourable friend whether the publicity about these matters in the press could be considered again so that it is both in better English and more easily understood by people who are frightened at the thought of winter?

§ Lord Glenarthur
Yes, my Lords, we share the concern of all those who are worried about the effect that winter could have on the elderly and infirm. If there is a form of words that can be used to make it more clear we shall consider it. But I should not like to be drawn on whether or not there would be a change in the end.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, will the noble Lord enlarge on his reply when he said that the elderly had been "over-provided for"? Does he mean that we have kept them too warm or does he mean to say that the weather is not so cold? He used the phrase "over-provided". The provision was through the DHSS without being too generous to the old-age pensioners.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, if the phrase "over-provided for" is capable of misinterpretation. I apologise. I share the noble Baroness's concern; but the fact remains that those who have now lost in the way that I described were getting double treatment to some extent in what amounts to a complex area and one that I should be delighted to talk to the noble Baroness about later or perhaps answer her in writing. This is a difficult subject. The fact remains that some people were receiving double benefit and that has now gone.

§ Lord Hill of Luton
My Lords, does the Minister deny that there are some ageing and infirm people who have lost nearly £2 a week as a result of the approval of these regulations? Secondly, will he ask for his right honourable friend to arrange that housing authorities, who are aware of old people needing more than the common level of heating provided for others, should notify the names of those people to the local office of the DHSS so that the position can be remedied? Finally, is the Minister aware of the case which I brought to the notice of the department: that an old lady of 85, nearly blind, suffered that reduction of just under £2—£1.90 in fact—as a result of the application of these regulations? No amount of debate will persuade one that that is right in modern conditions and modern circumstances.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot, without notice, say categorically whether the figure that the noble Lord quotes is right or wrong. But any claimant whose fixed charge does not meet all his or her heating needs can still be considered for a heating addition under the normal rules. Indeed, many claimants in this position are better off under the new arrangements than before because they can now get both heating additions from supplementary benefit and a further rebate of a percentage of the amenity charge as part of their housing benefit.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, may I take the noble Lord back to the point that I raised in my first question about the different interpretations being put on these regulations by local authorities throughout the country? May I ask him to reconsider sending out some notes of guidance for clarification to local authorities and publishing the information more widely than it is at present?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I shall certainly consider that and see what we can do to help.