HL Deb 02 November 1983 vol 444 cc559-60

2.55 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they propose to take to prevent the Greater London Council passing on by way of precept on the London boroughs the £129 million penalty incurred by them by reason of their over-spending.

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)

My Lords, the GLC has already precepted for the £129 million to which the Question refers. The ratepayers have paid it. At present, the Government have no powers to prevent the GLC from levying whatever precept it wishes.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, does it follow from my noble friend's Answer that the GLC has not suffered at all from the imposition of this penalty, but that the ratepayers in the London boroughs have? If that is right, will my noble friend agree that this weapon by itself is wholly ineffective and suggests that rate capping legislation is increasingly urgent and might well be applied in the present year to the extremely extravagant Greater London Council?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I have every sympathy with my noble friend's Question. The situation does point to the urgency of the need for some restriction on that minority—I stress the word "minority"—of high spending, high rating authorities who treat their ratepayers as if money was no object. I think that what the Government are proposing is the only answer we have except in the case of the GLC, as my noble friend knows, and the Government intend to abolish it.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, since the Government want the GLC spending for 1984–85 reduced by £333 million, or 34 per cent., will he agree that the GLC has said that such drastic cuts can only be achieved by, among other things, putting up London transport fares by 45 per cent., ending all grants to community and voluntary groups, not just the controversial ones, ending concessionary fares for old people and cutting the fire service? Does the Minister say that that is being completely careless about money? How much will the GLC services cost the London boroughs when the GLC is abolished, as these are, I am sure he will agree, essential services that I have listed?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I do not know if the list is one the GLC has submitted to the noble Baroness, Lady Birk. If it is, I would say, "They would say that, wouldn't they?" If we were concerned about the GLC's knowledge of what it will or will not spend, we should recognise that the auditors are now producing—at least we hope they will produce—the figures. For the year in question, they spent £177 million less than they rated for. That is something about which I, as one who pays rates to the GLC, am very concerned indeed to know why I have been called upon to pay a precept for spending that has not been spent.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, is it not true then that the under-spending, which should be returned to the GLC by way of block grant by the Government, has not yet made its appearance and it is not known whether it will be received by next summer, when the rate support grant has already been arranged?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, it is for the auditors to confirm these figures are so. I am telling your Lordships what the GLC say. I should have thought, in view of other things they say, that we should wait to see whether the auditors verify it. If they do say that this is so and £100 million is repaid, I presume they will not hesitate to give the money back to the people who paid it in the first place and who should not have done so.