§ 3.4 p.m.
§ Lord Montagu of BeaulieuMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they appreciate the necessity of having leaded petrol available after 1990 for use by vehicles constructed previously, the modification of whose engines to use unleaded fuel would be impossible or impractical.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, the Government fully accept that when lead-free petrol is introduced transitional arrangements will be needed for a number of years to ensure that leaded petrol continues to be available for vehicles that need it.
§ Lord Montagu of BeaulieuMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is he aware that what he has said will be of considerable comfort to the owners of the more exotic and historic vehicles, such as vintage Bentleys and so on, the continuing use of which gives immense pleasure to the general public?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for those remarks. I am equally glad that we are able to give that comfort to those owners.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, do the Government accept the view of the Royal Commission that so long as there is a demand for leaded petrol there is no reason at all why it should not be supplied? Will the Government, in their various consultations, be having talks with the motoring organisations on this 183 important point which has been raised by the noble Lord? Finally, as everything will depend upon negotiations with the EEC, will the Government keep Parliament informed of progress in this direction in case things should not be going satisfactorily?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, that full consultation with all the interested parties in the United Kingdom—the oil industry, the motor industry and, indeed, the users—will be undertaken. I am quite sure he will accept that these consultations may take some little while to resolve, as there are a number of problems. So far as the EEC is concerned, noble Lords may like to know that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment will be discussing this matter with colleagues at the council meeting in Europe next month, in June.
§ Lord Mowbray and StourtonMy Lords, am I right in thinking that Her Majesty's Government are ordering that by 1985 the lead content in petrol for all new cars should be down from 0.4 grammes per litre to 0.15? Can my noble friend give me some indication of the percentage of lead reduction that is?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. It was in 1981 that the Government recognised the problems associated with lead in petrol and made arrangements for the level to be reduced from 0.4 grammes per litre to 0.15 in 1985. This will be a 60 per cent. reduction in the lead content in petrol, and will make the most significant difference to the whole problem of leaded petrol. The move towards lead-free petrol, I am quite sure it will be realised by all noble Lords, will therefore be of a very much smaller denomination.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, while we are talking about petrol, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that at many garages announcements on the pumps say that the petrol is so much per litre? Can we please have the announcements on these pumps in gallons?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, the price of petrol is somewhat wide of the Question on the Order Paper, but certainly there has been a move during the last few years to adopt the litre system. But if one looks very carefully one will see, certainly at all the garages and filling stations with which I have been associated over a number of years and have knowledge of today, that there is a chart on the side of the pump giving the equivalent rates.
§ Lord BishopstonMy Lords, will the Minister give some thought to the need to keep the cost of petrol down, especially if there are any changes in the lead content? I think he will recall that exactly four years ago today, at the last general election, petrol could be bought for about 93p per gallon—and that price has now almost doubled. If the present trend continues, and if the present Government stay in office, the cost of cars and motoring will be such that the only vehicles to be seen will be in motor museums.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, first. I have little doubt but that the present Government will remain in power. So far as the cost is concerned, noble Lords will recall that lead-free petrol was shown to be somewhat more costly. If people wish to have all the environmental benefits of lead-free petrol, they must recognise that they have to be paid for. In Chapter 7 of its report, the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution sets out all the costs associated with this move.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, will my noble friend not agree that the rise in the price of petrol has nothing whatever to do with Government policy? It is entirely due to the increasing surplus of refining capacity.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am not sure that I have any note about the surplus of refining capacity, but certainly the cost of petrol at our pumps results from a wide variety of factors.
§ Lord HankeyMy Lords, can the Government tell the House whether any encouragement is being given to industrial and chemical research with a view to producing a substitute for lead which will maintain the octane level in petrol without being equally damaging to the health of the population?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, research has been going on for a number of years, and there are a number of alternatives to lead. One is methanol, and another is MTBE. These are both produced in small quantities, largely on the continent. They are very expensive, but they could certainly provide an alternative additive to increase the octane rating.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the best answer that he can give my noble friend Lord Bishopston is quite simple: get on your bike?
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the cost of petrol in this country, which has its own oil resources—as we understand it, quite ample resources—is very much higher than it is in some countries which do not have any oil at all of their own? Can he explain how his Government have managed to arrange that for us?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, if the noble Lord cares to put down a specific Question on the Order Paper, I shall be delighted to give him what answer I can.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, will the noble Lord investigate the whole question of the cost of additives to petrol to be used in substitution for lead, to which he referred in answer to another noble Lord? My information is that there are additives which do not add significantly to the cost of the fuel itself. Will he undertake to investigate that a little further?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am quite happy to give the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, an assurance that I shall look at that point. He uses the word "significant", and I would point out 185 that it is very difficult to quantify exactly what is meant by that.