HL Deb 24 March 1983 vol 440 cc1232-4

3.23 p.m.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they still support the Plowden Committee's recommen- dations in nursery school places and what plans they have to ensure their implementation.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government support the Plowden Committee's views on the value of nursery education. As was the case with our predecessors, the economic circumstances that have prevailed since the mid-1970s prevent us from achieving the committee's targets. Nevertheless, the number of children in nursery schools and nursery classes in England has continued to grow, from some 187,000 in 1977 to over 235,000 in 1982, and the proportion of three and four year-olds receiving nursery education in 1982 was 22 per cent., the highest ever. The Government's expenditure plans continue to allow for a gradual increase in the number of places available.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, aware that the Plowden Committee recommended that 90 per cent. of four year-olds should be in nursery school places, and that 50 per cent. of three year-olds should be? Can the noble Earl tell us what percentage has been achieved by this Government up until last year, in 1982, and can he say what are the plans, according to the public expenditure figures, for the next two years?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I thought that I told the noble Lord in my original Answer that the proportion of three and four year-olds receiving nursery education in 1982 was 22 per cent. I am quite certain that the Plowden Committee, when it made its report, could not have foreseen the oil crises that hit us in the 1970s and the consequent fact that we had to cut our cloth to suit our condition in life. The public expenditure White Paper assumes a fall in total provision for under-fives in England from 437,000 in 1982 to 420,000 in 1986. An underlying assumption is, however, that numbers of nursery pupils will rise slowly. Numbers of under-fives admitted early to primary infant classes are expected to fall quite steeply—in fact, they have fallen each year since 1979—and to outweigh the expected rise in nursery pupil numbers.

Baroness David

My Lords, does the noble Earl not consider that the many empty classrooms now in our primary schools because of falling rolls make it an admirable time to increase the provision of nursery classes?

The Earl of Swinton

I would certainly agree with that, my Lords, and that is very much being encouraged at the present time.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, does the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, not agree with his right honourable friend in another place, who is reported to have said that nursery education leads to a saving in later life, in a reduction in the necessity for remedial education? Is he agreeing that the public expenditure figures show a fall in the provision for nursery education—not an absolute fall but a percentage fall on the lower number of children of nursery school age during those years—and that that fall is provided for in the present estimate? In view of the Government's claim that there is a recovery on the way, how can this be justified? Is the noble Earl aware that his right honourable friend in another place, the Prime Minister, promised in 1972 that by 1982 the Plowden Committee's recommendations would have been fulfilled? That was in 1972—a clear promise that this would be achieved by 1982.

Several noble Lords

Speech!

The Earl of Swinton

The wisdom of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is great indeed, but I believe that even she could hardly have been expected to have seen in 1972 what was going to happen to oil prices and the world economy during the 1970s. The noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, has asked so many questions that it is difficult to answer them all. He has been on again about the expenditure plans in the White Paper. The expenditure plans provide for some fall in the total expenditure on all provisions for the under-fives. This reflects the current fall in the number of four year-olds being admitted early to primary schools, and does not have to mean a drop in the level of nursery education provision. As I said in my original Answer, there is a gradual increase in the amount of nursery provision being provided in this country.