The School Meals Service: Costs (Hansard, 10 March 1983)

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, forward estimates for the component costs of school meals are not made. In the financial year 1981–82, the latest year for which returns of actual expenditure are available, the cost of providing free meals was £182 million. The cost of mid-day supervision, excluding the costs in Scotland, where this information is not collected separately, was £62 million. Separate information is not collected on authorities' costs in providing facilities for pupils who bring their own food to school.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Nevertheless, as regards that Answer, does he not fear that the nutritional level of school meals will be lowered as local authorities bear the growing amount of the statutory cost, and will consequently have less for the direct costs, such as food? Would the Minister not agree that this is most likely to happen in areas which are already economically stretched, where the resources of the local authorities are going elsewhere, and also in areas where there are children from poor families who are most in need of a good school meal?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am not sure quite why these figures should in any way refer to the nutritional quality of the meals provided. It is very much up to the local education authority what sort of meals they provide, taking into account the circumstances of the children they have in their area.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, will the noble Earl confirm that the real cost of this type of service in a gravely unemployed society is nil, but all that really happens is that a number of people who were previously occupied in providing this service are now unoccupied?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am not quite sure that I really understand the tenor of the noble Lord's question. There are people occupied producing school meals and there are children occupied in eating them.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, in view of the massive increase in unemployment, can the noble Lord give us the figures for the increasing number of children who must obviously be able to benefit from school meals? Those figures would be very enlightening to your Lordships. I understand that at present in Birmingham it would be nearly 50 per cent. of the children in the schools.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I have very detailed figures indeed on the number of children who are taking school meals. They are broken down into various categories: primary schools, secondary schools, free meals and so on. I think that the best thing for me to do would be to write to the noble Baroness with the detailed figures.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, is the noble Minister satisfied with the means for ensuring that the quality and quantity of school meals are adequate, whether they be "Merton packed lunches" or full meals? Is he aware that a study by a team from St. Thomas's Hospital showed that those who were entitled to receive free school meals were significantly shorter in stature than average, and that the study team felt that the withdrawal of school meals might well prejudice their future development?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, perhaps it is rather inappropriate for me, with my stature, to answer the Question. It had become increasingly apparent even before the Education Act 1980, that centrally determined nutritional standards were restricting innovation and preventing local education authorities from providing the type of food which pupils wanted. This led to a lot of waste, and wasted food clearly has no nutritional value whatever. One of the things that arises is that, under the new cafeteria system which many local education authorities have adopted, there is far, far less waste and, in fact, at places where the pig swill man used to come round, local authorities are now having to pay him to come and take away the little that is left over.
In fact, the noble Lord may be interested to know that a survey of the dietary intake of school children is at present going on, and has been commissioned by the Department of Health and Social Security. The results of this should be available next year which will probably give the Government more chance to study what is going on.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, will that survey cover the London borough of Merton, which apparently has ceased to provide any meals at all, except sandwiches for those who must have free meals? I should have thought that sandwiches for those having free meals was a totally inadequate diet. Could that borough please be covered by the survey, if it is not already?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think that the decision was taken only last night, so I really cannot say whether the borough of Merton is covered by the 326 survey, or whether it has decided to produce sandwiches or to go elsewhere. However, I should like to make it absolutely clear that it is no part of the Government's policy that the school meals service should be abolished, and public expenditure forecasts adequately provide for its continuation.
A number of authorities have demonstrated that it is possible, through greater efficiency, to achieve the necessary reductions in school meals expenditure without abandoning parts of their service. However, such decisions are for individual local education authorities to decide and defend in the light of local circumstances.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is this not an instructive lesson on the priorities of the present Government, that they are quite happy to allow local authorities such as Merton to exercise their discretion to abandon the provision of school meals while insisting by law that all local authorities shall prepare for a nuclear war?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think that that is a somewhat different question from the one on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, does the noble Earl have available a comparison of the figures he has given with those for 1979? When he says that it is no part of the Government's policy to destroy the school meals service, is it not part of the Government's policy to reduce that service? Will he pay particular attention to the rural areas, where many children leave home at eight o'clock in the morning and do not return until about five o'clock in the evening? In many rural areas, have not school meals had to be abandoned because there is either no one to supervise them or no one to provide them at lunch time?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, is quite right. In fact, since this Government took office, it has been their policy to halve net expenditure on meals and milk in real terms so as to protect provision in the classroom. A number of local education authorities have responded positively to that policy and have attained expenditure levels consistent with the Government's plans. I myself live in a rural area where schools have gone over to the cafeteria system. Not only is it saving money, but it is also enormously more popular with the children who take the meals.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, would the Minister not agree that there is a threat of a reduction in the school meals service and that this will lead to another problem of employment for married women? I am sure he will agree that many of those working in the schools service are wives of unemployed people and also single mothers who have children at that school.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think that it is up to the local education authorities themselves as to who they employ or do not employ in their services.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, if the noble Earl does not have the figures available, would he be so kind as to write to me and let me know what they are?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am not quite sure of the figures for which the noble Lord is asking, but I shall read with interest what he said in Hansard and send him the figures for which he has asked.