HL Deb 10 March 1983 vol 440 cc321-4

3.7 p.m.

Lord Gridley

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask her Majesty's Government what has been the total saving achieved so far by the reduction in the size of the Civil Service.

Baroness Young

My Lords, the total saving in the Civil Service pay bill achieved since we came to office is about £1.2 billion at present prices. There are now on-going savings in pay costs of £590 million each year.

Lord Gridley

My Lords, while thanking my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House for that Answer, which I think represents a considerable achievement on the part of the Government, may I ask her, in respect of these savings which have been obtained, whether they are due to the normal process of retirement and a reduction in recruitment in respect of appointments which might be considered to be superfluous?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the savings have been achieved in a number of ways. There have been savings by what is called natural wastage and there have been savings by privatisation, including contracting out and hiving off.

Lord Shackleton

My Lords, could the noble Baroness divide the figures up as between the industrial side and the rest of the Civil Service and indicate where these great economies were made?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I do not have the precise breakdown of figures between the industrial and non-industrial civil servants, but I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that an overall total was agreed at the beginning of the lifetime of this Government and each department has contributed towards it.

Lord Shackleton

My Lords, the noble Baroness has not dealt with my question. Is this information available; and, if it is, could it be circulated?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I shall certainly see whether I can let the noble Lord have it.

Viscount Hanworth

My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that, quite apart from the savings made by denationalisation, real savings could be made by simplifying a great deal of legislation, taxation, benefits and so on? As a result, there would be real savings in administrative staff as opposed to those which come about by denationalisation.

Baroness Young

My Lords, there have been real savings in the Civil Service, and they have been achieved by civil servants. Indeed, it is a very great achievement on their part, and one which the Government acknowledge. Of course, there are arguments in favour of the simplification of legislation, and I take the point made by the noble Viscount on that matter.

Lord Rochester

My Lords, are the Government satisfied that the reduction in the number of civil servants is being achieved on a sufficiently selective basis? For example, is there not a strong case for there being as many people, and perhaps even more, in the employment service division of the Manpower Services Commission in order to counsel the increasing number of long-term unemployed?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I am glad to assure the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, that there has been considerable flexibility within the overall target, and the number of civil servants in both the Department of Employment and the Department of Health and Social Security has in fact increased.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that these cuts have had an effect upon morale in the Civil Service? Is she aware that the Financial Times, among other newspapers, describes the situation as: a palpable decline in Civil Service morale accompanying the cuts"? Is this not an extremely serious matter? Is that the reason why this year's quota of administration trainee vacancies has fallen so substantially? Given that we are all extremely proud of our Civil Service, are the Government not in danger of damaging it irreversibly?

Baroness Young

My Lords, as I have already indicated in answer to a previous question, the Government are the first to acknowledge that the reduction in numbers in the Civil Service has been brought about by civil servants themselves, and that they have in fact been willing for the publication of the scrutinies, many of which have shown up areas where savings can be made. All this has been open to public inspection. It is a tribute to their work that they have agreed both to the reductions in numbers and to this matter of open government.

On the question of the numbers of administration trainees, it is true that last year the Civil Service was unable to recruit as many administration trainees as it would have wished, and we have taken this matter very seriously. But we are hopeful that this year looks better. We are looking at recruitment methods, because it is very important that we should continue to recruit some of our most able young men and women into the Civil Service.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House make it clear that this is a gross saving and not a net saving? Will she confirm that it does not take into account the cost of redundancies, unemployment pay and, in certain cases, the increased cost to taxpayers by, for example, increased travelling expenses when certain offices have been closed down?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I should like to confirm the savings that have been made. Most of the savings in numbers have come about for the reasons that I have described, and there have been only a very few redundancies.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say what was the percentage reduction in that part of the Inland Revenue engaged in trying to recoup money lost on the "black economy"?

Baroness Young

My Lords, my information is that, as far as the Inland Revenue is concerned, the number of people engaged in identifying fraud has been increased.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, apart from the savings can the noble Baroness say how much money has had to be expended by Government departments in carrying out work which used to be done by civil servants? For example, I am thinking of the transfer of the Engineering Consultancy for Road Development, and organisations of that kind.

Baroness Young

My Lords, I cannot do so without notice. The fact of the matter is that where the savings have been made they have always been made in the interests of the better management of the Civil Service and of the more effective carrying out of the service that is involved.

Lord Plant

My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us the Government's attitude to the decision taken by your Lordships opposing the privatisation of the Ordnance Survey Department? Can the noble Baroness make any statement in this respect?

Baroness Young

My Lords, that, of course, is quite another question.