HL Deb 24 January 1983 vol 438 cc20-5

3.53 p.m.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. The Statement reads as follows:

"Mr Speaker, I wish, with permission, to make a Statement about the industrial action in the water industry.

"The House will be aware that from last Monday night, the unions representing manual workers in the water industry imposed an immediate ban on overtime and call-out for emergencies. They also announced that, with effect from midnight last night, there would be a national strike.

"The latest reports indicate that there have been some adverse consequences arising from last week's industrial action, which have affected normal water supplies in a number of local areas. Where it has not been possible to repair burst pipes, a supply has been maintained by stand-pipes or tankering, as appropriate. In the South-West, Manchester and parts of Wales, the water authority has advised the public, as a precaution, to boil any water to be used for drinking or cooking. Reports at midday today indicate that some 2,000 properties are without their normal supply. Water authorities have dealt this morning with bursts in major water mains in Eltham, in South London, and in the centre of Coventry. There have been no major pollution incidents reported.

"My department is in close touch with the reports from the water authorities, who are seeking to maintain adequate services to their customers. As I informed the House last Tuesday, contingency steps have been taken by the Government in the event of water undertakers asking for assistance to maintain essential services.

"Mr Speaker, the House will be aware that intensive discussions have been taking place under the auspices of ACAS in an attempt to resolve this serious dispute. On Friday, agreement was reached on a procedure involving negotiations under an independent chairman appointed by ACAS. It was also agreed that his powers should further extend to those of a mediator so that he could recommend terms for a satisfactory settlement.

"These talks began on Saturday morning. At that stage, the employers increased their offer. That offer was rejected and, after further discussions, the independent chairman, acting then in his role as mediator, made recommendations for a settlement. The main recommendation was for an increase of 7.3 per cent. over 16 months, plus another 0.5 per cent. from an increase in the five-year service supplement. The employers have indicated that these recommendations are broadly acceptable.

"I understand that the trade union side of the NJIC is meeting this afternoon to consider these recommendations and that the full NJIC will meet this evening.

"I very much hope that it will be possible for agreement to be reached at this evening's meeting and thus to end at the earliest moment the industrial action in the water industry, which could otherwise have increasingly serious consequences all over the country".

My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, we thank the Minister for repeating that Statement. All in this House are aware that this is a very serious matter; already millions of people are having to boil water. The situation could rapidly worsen within two or three weeks, by which time the sewerage system would become unusable, with sewage flowing into the rivers. Under the law, the Government have a statutory obligation to provide all water users with a wholesome supply of water. Under EEC and British legislation, they have the further statutory obligation to maintain the quality of river water. How do the Government intend to fulfill those legal obligations?

In November, the employers were ready to negotiate at around 6 per cent., until the Minister, who is now the Secretary of State for the Environment, 'phoned to stop that and insisted on 4 per cent. Without going further into figures, I would only say that we on this side feel that, in view of the range of wage increases today and the cost of living, 4 per cent. is a very low figure for people who have not earned very much and who appear to be near the bottom of the wage increase list.

Since that time the employers have not returned to the negotiating table until last weekend, so there has been the great delay of nearly three months, during which time the whole situation has worsened. Is it not a fact that yesterday's recommendation by the mediator amounts to 5.9 per cent. over 12 months, which is slightly less than the chairman of the National Water Council was prepared to offer in November? I have translated the percentage of the 16 months into the 12 months and have given the figure in that way. Thus, we have not only had a two-month delay, which has brought us to this grave and highly dangerous situation, but the intervention of the Minister was the direct cause of the breakdown, and we are all aware that once there is that sort of breakdown and that type of delay, there is unfortunately then produced a psychological climate which makes agreement and negotiation even more difficult. Will the Minister give an assurance that the mediator will now be free to negotiate without interference, and that the Government will not take any provocative action that will prejudice theoutcome?

Finally, does not the Minister agree that it is imperative that the dispute be settled rapidly on reasonable and honourable terms? It is ridiculous that in 1983 we should be on the brink of a breakdown of this kind in a country which we consider to be civilised and socially aware.

4 p.m.

Lord Evans of Claughton

My Lords, from these Benches I should like to say that we welcome the recommendation of the mediator of a 7.3 per cent. payment over 16 months, because in any terms this is a low-paid industry. We recognise that the workers did not necessarily agree to accept the mediator's recommendation. However, would not the noble Lord the Minister agree that, as the noble Baroness suggested, it would be a great tragedy should the country get into grave difficulties if workers who are in a particularly strong position to put pressure on the Government abuse that position? From these Benches we hope that the meeting this evening will reach an agreement that will be acceptable to both sides.

Finally, we accept that there are dangers in the emergency brought about by this action, but would not the noble Lord the Minister agree that it is important that the householders in this country should not be panicked into a belief that matters are more serious than they are? I think that the noble Lord the Minister might agree that, judging from what one reads in the papers and from what one has heard, people are being driven into panic when that situation does not yet justify it. I hope that he can reassure them.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, on that latter point I should like to say at once that I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton, for bringing it out. He is absolutely right; there is certainly no need for any panic, or anything even approaching that. The fact is that the sewerage system will not become unusable. The noble Baroness, Lady Birk, said that the situation could worsen within two or three weeks, but I am sure that all your Lordships hope that we shall not be in this situation in two or three weeks' time. Indeed, if it lasted that long, it would of course be worse than it is today, but even then there would be no cause to believe that there would be anything like the disastrous situation which the noble Baroness fears.

I am not going to respond in any belligerent tone, nor am I going to rise to the bait following the way in which the noble Baroness put her observations, other than to say this: the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, tried to imply that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State (as he now is) had insisted on 4 per cent. I think that that is quite wrong; that is not the case. The fact is that the Government have intervened neither more nor less than Governments have ever interfered in matters of this kind.

I still believe that at this moment it would be wrong for us to start to discuss a matter that is delicately poised. It was announced in the Statement—was it not?—that negotiations are taking place this afternoon, and that there will be a further meeting this evening. Anything that we now say that would exacerbate that situation would not be helpful, and therefore I now prefer not to proceed on that point.

The fact is that the mediator is there; he has the opportunity. He is absolutely independent, and I think that that is a plus. The trade union is under an agreement to go to arbitration, which it has chosen not to do. But at least the mediator is acting in this capacity. I think that that is a good thing, and I hope that it will reach a conclusion.

I agree with both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Evans, when they say that it would indeed be a tragedy if the situation were to develop at all. I sincerely hope that it will not. The fact is that here, as in so many other things, one is trying to see, and to hope, that there will be equity. I should remind the noble Baroness that the statutory obligation regarding provision lies not with the Government, but with the water authority, and I am sure that it knows that very well indeed. So far as my response to the Front Bench is concerned, I think that if I go no further than that, it will probably be more helpful than would otherwise be the case.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement, and to say how sorrowful it is to me to see this great industry in this parlous condition. I speak in particular in the light of my own experience. I was chairman of the NJIC, and in the past I have conducted similar negotiations. Is my noble friend aware that workers in the industry are not as acutely under-paid as some noble Lords might have suggested? The average earnings are £136 a week, and the average value of the award would be £8-plus per week. Those figures are not negligible. Is my noble friend also aware that I cannot help thinking that the majority of water workers, who are public-spirited, decent men, would be ready to settle for that kind of figure?

Therefore I most earnestly hope that at the NJIC meeting this afternoon the leaders of the three unions will have the usual good sense that I have seen them exercise so many times in the past, and will accept the offer which the independent arbitrator has made and which the employers seem disposed to accept, so that this very dangerous dispute may be settled. There is no doubt that as each day goes by more people will be cut off as bursts occur and main valves have to be turned off. Therefore water supplies to houses will disappear. In the course of a week or two very large numbers of houses all over the country, and indeed industries, will be without water. I feel sure that that is not something which those who work in the industry would want to see. I most earnestly hope that they will accept the proposal this afternoon and bring this very dangerous dispute to an end.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend, with his vast experience of the industry. In reply to one of his points. I would say that, yes, I am aware of the earnings level to which he referred. It is about an average of the pay of all manual workers. I said, and I still think, that I should not comment in detail on the proposed settlement itself while it is in its present stage of negotiation. But—and I am sure that I speak for everyone in your Lordships' House—I indeed endorse the wish that the matter be settled very speedily.

Lord Diamond

My Lords, as I, too, am most anxious not to say anything that touches too closely on the exact proposals that are under consideration, I should like to proceed from the particular to the general. I wish to ask the Minister whether he does not consider that the situation is yet a further example of the unsatisfactory nature of the method that we have of solving pay disputes. I should like to ask the Minister when the Government have it in mind to introduce proposals which will make it unnecessary for trade unionists to put to maximum inconvenience fellow trade unionists, and their wives and their children, in order to pursue their undoubted right to secure a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, on the latter point, the very fact that there is a dispute at all arises because, on the one hand, there are those who have to take account of the ability to pay on the part of those who, at the end of the day, pay the bill—bearing in mind also what is paid to others—while, on the other hand, there are those, as the noble Lord said, who feel that they need to have more money to take home. There will always be differences in such a situation and that is what negotiation and discussion are all about. The noble Lord asked, is not the situation a further example of the unsatisfactory nature of solving pay disputes? Well, indeed it is. But when there is a perfect way of doing it, I shall be very pleased to hear about it.

Lord Boardman

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in the private sector there are a number of firms which, while unfamiliar with the systems, have the skills and competence to deal with a great deal of the maintenance and repair work that at the moment is not being done? If this unfortunate strike continues, will he consider encouraging the Water Council to make use of those facilities, and so relieve some of the hardship and industrial loss that otherwise will follow, and also show that a monopoly of this kind must not be used to abuse the public?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says. There are many who have spoken similarly and who have sympathy with that view. I think that for today, however, I should prefer not to comment on that. We are most anxious that this matter should be settled. What the future would hold in that way, is, I think, and I would suggest, properly for another occasion rather than for today.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord who gave the advice not to fill the bath, et cetera? He mentioned the fact that people should not panic but there is all the difference between panic and precaution. I have a whole yard of cattle to get watered. My son suggested filling the swimming pool but I persuaded him that it was Government advice not to do this. I am wondering whether my advice to him not to do it was right.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, only time will tell.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, who gave the advice?