HL Deb 20 January 1983 vol 437 cc1529-33

3.19 p.m.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the important role which Britain has played in recent years in an endeavour to move towards a stable peace in the Middle East, and acknowledging the need to understand the views of all concerned, they are prepared to consider the request of the Arab League to have a representative of the Palestine Liberation Organisation in its delegation for talks with them.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the House will realise that this is a fast-moving situation. Following the postponement of the Arab League delegation visit in early December, we have been working with the Moroccan Government to find a mutually acceptable basis for the visit to go ahead. Welcome progress has been made on many of the details.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that that is a most ambiguous statement and helps no one? Is the noble Lord further aware that over the past 12 months the Government have strenuously sought to find a lasting peace in the Middle East; that this Government have sought to stop the killing and slaying and atrocities; and that both the former Foreign Secretary and the present Foreign Secretary have declared unequivocally that no examination of the situation to achieve a lasting peace can be undertaken without the participation of the leaders of the PLO? Is he further aware that following the first statement, when the Arab countries decided to see the leaders of the Security Council of the United Nations, our country was high on this list; and that they were faced with almost an ultimatum from some where—

Noble Lords

Order!

Lord Molloy

—and one does not know whether it was from the Foreign Office or from Downing Street?

Noble Lords

Order!

Lord Molloy

Is he further aware that there is a possibility that this country will lose a great opportunity to make its contribution to achieve peace for all in the Middle East?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am afraid it was impossible to catch all the points made in the supplementary question put by the noble Lord, Lord Molloy. However, I can agree with him on his second point. So far as his first point is concerned, in which he accused me of making an ambiguous statement, I suggest that the statement means exactly what is says. We are dealing with the Moroccan Government on this matter and it is for them to decide when the time is right to make an announcement.

Lord Wells-Pestell

My Lords, will the noble Lord repeat the assurance given by his Government and his party on a number of occasions that they will not have dealings or discussions with the PLO until the PLO gives an assurance that it recognises the existence of Israel?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, on several occasions we have explained the kind of step which would make such a meeting possible: a clear statement from the PLO accepting Israel's right to exist—if necessary, on condition that Israel accepted legitimate Palestinian rights and confirming that they had renounced terrorism. I stick by that.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, will the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, say how it is possible for the Government to recognise representatives of the PLO when none of the Arab countries who are not democratic in character refuse to recognise the right of the State of Israel to security and to stop interfering in Israel's affairs? Is he aware that all the attempts at intimidation and adverse comments and criticism can produce no beneficial effects until, collectively, the Arab countries recognise the State of Israel?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the delegation about which we are talking is a collective Arab delegation of the Arab League. Nobody in this country has ever said—and I do not believe it has ever been suggested before the noble Lord's supplementary question—that the PLO should be a member of such a delegation.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that we shall never reach a settlement of this long running difficulty until the PLO's voice is heard in some way in the international context? However much we may sympathise with Israel—and I dare say that most of us do—we shall have to find a way for the PLO's voice to be heard in this context.

Lord Skelmersdale

I entirely agree with my noble friend, my Lords, but I will add to his comment that it is absolutely essential that this voice is not accompanied by threats of arms.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, there is very wide interest in this country and beyond in the outcome of contacts between the British Government and Morocco as a result of the failure of the delegation to include London in its earlier tour. Can the Government tell us why it is that news of the success of those discussions is expected to come from Morocco rather from this country or from both countries simultaneously?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, it is because the King of Morocco is to lead the delegation and it is for him to say who are to be members of the delegation or otherwise.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, aware that the PLO is an organisation of assassins publicly pledged to obtain its ends by assassination? Is he aware also that it has won its position by assassination and of the fear it has created in the Arab world? Remember, the PLO has assassinated far more Arabs than it has assassinated Jews. This is not a Question about Israel but one about us; that we must never acknowledge or accept an assassination society pledged to violence.

Lord Skelmersdale

The PLO may have won its position by assassination, my Lords, but we are all concerned to make very clear that it will not keep it by that method. Further than that, this Question is not about the PLO but about the delegation I have described.

Lord Clifford of Chudleigh

My Lords, while admitting that two wrongs do not make a right, is the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, aware that the whole pattern of post-war terrorism was set by the Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang? Those of us who were on the receiving end in 1946—and I refer to the King David Hotel and the Orange Grove murders—are somewhat amazed that 37 years later the Government are taking what seems to us to be a one-sided view of another organisation and are so upsetting the whole diplomatic approach to peace in the Middle East.

Lord Skelmersdale

No, my Lords, I was not aware of the facts behind the noble Lord's supplementary question. I do not believe that it is a one-sided position; we have bent over backwards to be eminently fair and eminently reasonable to all the parties to this dispute.

Lord Hankey

My Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, aware that most sensible people who are not beleaguered on this horribly controversial question will be extremely glad if the Government can find an amicable solution which will enable discussions to continue among all concerned with a view to finding a solution to this problem, which may one day affect the peace of the world?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, and this is exactly what we have been trying to do since before this Question was put down in December.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, in view of the deep need for a solution to the Middle East problem, does the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, not agree that the evidence of all those who have interviewed the Arab League and the PLO indicates that they would be ready to accept the borders of Israel in return for concessions about the West Bank and the area of the border; and that they are only withholding a declaration for that purpose because of negotiations which are taking place? Should we not forget what has been said in the past and welcome that indication as a reason for negotiation?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I agree that it is an indication, but I do not believe that it is an acceptable indication to any other party until one of the leaders of the PLO makes this assertion in public.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, aware that what many of us on both sides of this House seek is a march towards peace and to stop the massacres which have occurred in the Lebanon from ever happening again; and that Jews and Arabs not yet born shall be left without that hatred in them to hurt one another and to be at each other's throats? Is there not a danger if we do not agree to see the PLO in the Arab delegation? As President Reagan himself has said, The story of the search for peace and justice in the Middle East is a tragedy of missed opportunities". Will the noble Lord not agree to take this matter back to the Foreign office for the whole question to be reexamined—not in the interests of just Arabs or Israelis but of world peace and justice?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I fully expect a very early announcement on the delegation to this country from the Arab League, which will include visits to Her Majesty the Queen, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Office. Further to that, I believe that all of us in this area should work to fulfil the prophecy in Isaiah, that the wolf shall dwell with the lamb.