§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the total sum being spent by local authorities as part of campaigns attacking some aspects of Government policy.
§ Lord BellwinMy Lords, I regret to say that this information is not available.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I thank my noble friend. May I ask him whether the Government can refute the infamous fabrications which are printed week after week in The Londoner and stuffed through people's letterboxes without so much as a "by your leave", thus giving totally false information to thousands of Londoners?
§ Lord BellwinMy Lords, I am aware of the concern with regard to this publication, and indeed I answered questions on the point in this House not so long ago. Really, at the end of the day it is a matter for the district auditor to decide whether or not this is a proper application of public funds, ratepayers' money, and so on. I think it would be helpful if I were to tell my noble friend that suggestions have been made to the district auditor that this is not so; but the final adjudication as to that must lie with him.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, can the Minister say how much local authorities are allowed to spend without explicit statutory authority? Can he also say whether there are any restrictions on the purposes for which that money can be spent? Also, if we believe in the greater freedom of local government from central control, is it not bound to happen that from time to time local authorities will do things which are unpopular with the Government of the day? Therefore, if the noble Lord's party believes in the extension of power to local government, will they not have to accept that the GLC and other authorities may publish material with which they do not particularly agree?
§ Lord BellwinMy Lords, it really has nothing at all to do with whether what is in these publications is to support or to go against the Government's policies. It is all related to whether or not this kind of money—ratepayers' money, in particular—should be applied to this kind of thing. That is really what it is about. It has nothing at all to do with Government or Government policies. As I said before, whether it is or is not a proper use of ratepayers' money is for the district auditor to decide, and I assure the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, that there has been no shortage of 934 representations to him about this particular publication. As to the first part of the question regarding the availability of powers to authorities to do it, they have powers in two ways—under Section 142 of the Local Government Act and also under Section 137, if they wish. But, primarily, Section 142 applies to this particular type of expenditure. How much money that means, as I am sure the noble Lord knows, varies in accordance with the totality of their spending.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, would the Minister agree that, when consultation papers are issued, it is quite a democratic procedure for a local authority to wish to consult people in its area and, if it believes that any threatened legislation will be injurious to the people in the area, to endeavour to do something about it—maybe, by campaign activities?
§ Lord BellwinMy Lords, I consider it a matter of priorities and I would question very much whether it is a great priority for an authority which says, as most authorities do, that it would like to apply more money to the application of services but it is always short of funds to do this. If it is a priority of such an authority to spend money on running campaigns against Government policies, then I think it will really have to answer to the people it represents for what it does not provide.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, is it not, on the other hand, unfair to the Greater London Council to criticise them for adorning the facade of County Hall with the London unemployment figures, in view of the fact that their own high rate policies have contributed so much to those figures and they are, therefore, only proclaiming their own achievements?
§ Lord BellwinMy Lords, my noble friend knows that I have much sympathy with what he has just said, but I suggest that that is slightly aside from the original Question.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, arising out of the noble Lord's original reply, would he say whether there have been any incidents reported to him of reports by the auditors, to whom he referred, disallowing significant items of expenditure of any local authority? Will he not agree that, although there are certain responsibilities laid on local authorities, there is a responsibility on Her Majesty's Ministers not to make partisan attacks on party lines against specific local authorities?
§ Lord BellwinMy Lords, as to the second part of the noble Lord's question, he must take a view on what is said and, like it or not, that will be for him to decide. As to whether or not the district auditor should disallow, to the best of my knowledge his duty is to decide whether the spending of money on publications of this kind, or anything else come to that, is a matter that is ultra vires. That is for him to decide. If he should so decide, he would then know what action to take. But as I have said, I do not know that such action has been taken or is contemplated at the present time.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, would the Minister agree that it is a healthy expansion of democracy in 935 this country if local authorities have the right to protest against the policy of the centralised Government? Is it not the case that this is particularly true because the Government are cutting down the expenditure of local authorities on their activities?
§ Lord BellwinMy Lords, the noble Lord may feel that it is right to do as he says. But I would only respectfully submit that, in the doing of it, there is a duty to take account of what you spend of other people's money to make your case, and to consider whether it is reasonable to spend £¼ million or £½ million. I am horrified to think that money is spent on publications of this kind. When I remember how carefully we counted every penny of other people's money that we spent in my former incarnation, I am even more horrified that this kind of spending takes place.