HL Deb 28 February 1983 vol 439 cc931-3

2.42 p.m.

Lord Merrivale

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the present position regarding the gifting to the Gibraltar Government of surplus defence land in Gibraltar (apart from the North Mole and Viaduct Bridge and, too, the dockyard land, buildings and assets, should commercial operation prove to be viable); and what talks are taking place between both parties concerning the transfer of other defence land in Gibraltar.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, with the exception of reclaimed land, surplus defence land in Gibraltar is already transferred to the Gibraltar Government free of charge. Her Majesty's Government have recently put forward proposals for revising the arrangements covering the transfer of reclaimed land and discussions at official level are likely to take place soon.

Lord Merrivale

My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask whether the reclaimed land includes structures on the seabed and buildings with a continuing use?—because in the past they were not gifted to the Gibraltar Government. Furthermore, may I ask him whether he will bear in mind what he said in December, regarding an ODA funded consultancy which was to advise how home ownership can be encouraged in Gibraltar? Can he say whether further defence land will be made available for the Gibraltarian private sector?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, my noble friend asks whether structures on the seabed and buildings with a continuing use come within the definition of reclaimed land. The answer to that is, Yes; although perhaps I might point out to my noble friend that of course the North Mole, which the Government have said will be gifted to the Gibraltar Government, is technically a structure on the seabed. Nonetheless, I am very glad, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, that this undertaking has been given for that particular structure.

My noble friend asked me about further land for more houses. I must simply make the point to him that the Ministry of Defence really must retain what is needed for the operation and support of British forces in Gibraltar. But within that policy the scope of its land holdings is always kept under consideration.

Lord Merrivale

My Lords, without wishing to weary the House, would my noble friend not consider that there is very little flat land available in Gibraltar? Also, would he not think that for there to be only 4 per cent. of properties in Gibraltar which are owner-occupied is a very small proportion of the whole?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I would agree with my noble friend in that assertion, and perhaps I ought to add to what I have already said, that any specific requests from the Gibraltar Government in regard to land are always looked at very carefully but within the framework of the policy I have just explained.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, in answer to a question asked some weeks ago the noble Lord said that the Government would be prepared to assist those who might suffer as a result of the planned closure of the dockyard in Gibraltar. Can he indicate whether any applications have been made for such assistance and what plans the Government have in mind? Furthermore, is the noble Lord aware that these measures could be misinterpreted in certain quarters, especially in the light of recent events? Can he say what attitude the Government are going to take when they hold their talks with the Spanish Government on the question of the sovereignty of Gibraltar?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, so far as the prospects for work in a commercialised dockyard are concerned, the discussions are taking place at the moment between the prospective managers, A and P Appledore International Limited, Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Gibraltar. These are concerned with the practical aspects of the proposed commercialisation arrangements, and other parties who are directly concerned will be consulted at the appropriate time. There will, of course, be normal consultations with the trade unions by the Ministry of Defence and, I have no doubt, later on by the operators. However, I really feel that we are going a little wide in talking about the subject of sovereignty. If the noble Lord will forgive me, I think I will not embark upon that.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, will the noble Lord tell the House what is the difference between "giving" and "gifting"? If there is no difference, can he say why the Government do not use the ordinary word?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, "gifted" was the word which I think has been used in correspondence by the Government. If the noble Lord prefers "giving", I can use that word instead.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, can the Minister give us an assurance that nothing will be done to diminish the effectiveness of Gibraltar as part of our defences?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, once again I think the noble Lord is going very wide of the original Question. This is a Question about the transfer of lands from Her Majesty's Government—from the Ministry of Defence—to the Government of Gibraltar, and if we go much wider than that we shall go on for ever.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, if we do transfer these lands, will that diminish the effectiveness of Gibraltar?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, indeed not. I am glad to have the opportunity to reiterate what I have already said in this exchange: that the Ministry of Defence must retain what is necessary for the operation and support of the forces in Gibraltar.