The Universities: Funding Plans (Hansard, 20 October 1982)

§ Lord Hunter of Newington
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, the Government intend to continue the present triennial arrangements.

§ Lord Hunter of Newington
My Lords, in thanking the Minister for his short reply, may I ask what the Government's view is about the future of the University Grants Committee? Will it he academic, advisory or executive? If executive, will that have any effect on the freedom and autonomy of the universities?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the Government have no plans to change the broad role and function of the University Grants Committee. Nor do Ministers seek to influence academic decisions between courses and universities. However, we believe that it may well be appropriate for Ministers to have, to a modest extent, a little more influence over broad shifts of emphasis upon which they could be questioned, such as that at present taking place towards science and technology and away from arts and social sciences.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, in their funding plans, do the Government aim to bring the University Grants Committee into closer relationship with the structures now being set up to deal with higher education in the public sector?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, as I said at the opening of my answer to the previous supplementary question, we have no plans to change the broad role and function of the University Grants Committee. There are no detailed structural changes immediately in mind that I know of.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the Minister aware that some universities are going through an extraordinarily difficult time, including the University of Wales with which my noble and learned friend and I are closely associated? Does his reply about a triennium mean that there will not be any further cuts on universities, at least for the next three years?

§ Lord Elton
We certainly recognise that the universities have been going through a very difficult period and we should recognise the very able and flexible way in which the universities have coped. We are now approaching the floor, as it were, of the cutback, and it is hoped that the level of funding will he maintained at the same level for the subsequent year.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I apologise to the Minister for coming back to this point, but he has not replied specifically to my question. He said that the principle of a triennium will now he in operation. Can he clearly say that that means that no university in the United Kingdom will be subjected to cuts by the Government, through the University Grants Committee, for the next three years?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord will not expect me to give detailed forecasts—

§ Baroness Jeger
Why not?

§ Lord Elton
Because one does not anticipate budgets over a period. The question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hunter, was about a triennium. The advantage of the present system is that one is given a firm figure for the immediately ensuing year and figures of increasing flexibility over subsequent years which enable one to plan ahead and also meet contingencies as they arise. I am sure that is the right balance.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, speaking as a governor of one of the colleges of London University, I must press the Minister further. When we are given a triennial figure in ordinary English that would make us feel assured for three years. The Minister now appears to be saying that that is not the case. Is he aware that it is impossible for people who are involved in university planning to work on such a basis?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, if it is of help to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness perhaps I can be slightly more precise. We intend that 1983–84 should complete the planned period of contraction and we hope that the level of grant provision then reached can be maintained in 1984–85. However, your Lordships will know that one cannot tie oneself to precise volume figures at a time of uncertain inflation rates.

§ Lord Alport
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is impossible for any vice-chancellor or senate of university to plan ahead if they only know for certain what amount of money will be available to them for one year? The noble Lord indicated that for the two subsequent years it may change in a way in which they cannot possibly anticipate. Is he aware that that may throw out all the plans made for the subsequent two years?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, it would he very nice for all of us if we could always count on the money in our pockets buying what we want it to buy. Unfortunately, in real life we can only count on the amount of money in our pockets. The noble Lord would like that to be more precisely defined. He will see from the letter which my right honourable friend wrote to Dr. Parkes on 14th July, which was published, that figures were given in approximate terms for the years 1983–84 and 1984–85. Those are planning figures and my noble friend would be the last to complain if contingencies were such that they had to be varied downwards and not upwards. Flexibility must be available in both directions.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, would the noble Lord not be prepared to say that the Government really mean to stick to the figure? I am a director of Dundee University, and I know about the trauma that they have gone through in arranging a 15 per cent. cut over three years. Every department has taken part and they have succeeded in achieving immense cuts. If the noble Lord is to stand there—

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
Question!

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, it is a question. If the Minister is to stand there and say that there are contingencies that might alter downwards the money available, that would be a blow to the confidence of the universities which are following the Government's plan.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, is the—

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, perhaps I could have an answer to my question.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, with respect, the noble Lord has not asked me a sentence which ends with an interrogation mark. I do not know what the question is.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, the Minister is quite wrong. I said, does he really mean to stand there and say that he cannot even say that he will try to keep the money up?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I have already stood here and done better. I have said what we intend to do.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the success of Stirling University—one of the universities most severely affected by the cuts—in attracting industrial development to the campus of the university in the form of an investment by a large United States computer company? Could he encourage other universities to follow similar initiatives?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, what the noble Lord has described sounded admirable, but obviously I cannot comment without notice on specific cases. However. I shall look at what the noble Lord has said and if it is as admirable as he describes it, I shall bring it to the attention of my right honourable friend.

§ Lord Fletcher
My Lords, would the Minister make it clear one way or the other whether or not universities and colleges can lie in the financial provisions made in the triennial plan?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I repeat that we intend that 1983–84 should complete the planned period of contraction and hope that the level of grant provision then reached can be maintained in 1984–85. If the noble Lord reads that tomorrow morning at his breakfast, I think he will find that it comes to as clear an indication of our intentions and the direction of our expenditure plans as it is fair to give at that distance of time.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that more than half the higher educational sector now lies outside the universities, mainly in the polytechnics? Is he aware that they are suffering from the most appalling difficulties, and that the local authorities, which normally help them, are unable to do so any further because of constraints on their spending? Could the noble Lord give a similar assurance about the funding of the polytechnics to the one that he has given about the universities?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, this Question has gone on a long time. The Question is about universities, and the noble Lord asked me about polytechnics.

§ Lord Hunter of Newington
My Lords, now that we have a triennium, can the Minister say whether local authority rates, pay settlements and matters of that kind, which, under a quinquennial system, were subject to an additional grant, will be the subject of additional grants in the new triennial system?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that I should take advice on the answer to that question. I shall write to the noble Lord.