Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (Hansard, 13 October 1982)

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he can give us an assurance that the United Kingdom—

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Young)
My Lords, I am sorry that there should have been any misunderstanding with the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, but the next Question has now been called, and I think it would be right to move on to the next Question.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, may I say to the Leader of the House that I gave way to another Member, and I hope that I may be able to put my supplementary question.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I saw that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, had given way to the noble Viscount. But there was quite a long pause before the next Question was called, and I really think that it would be right to move on to it now.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I wonder whether I could prevail upon the noble Leader of the House to give my noble friend a chance—

Several Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, the reason why he did not rise was due to the infirmity of deafness, and I do not think that the House should take advantage of my noble friend's deafness.

Several Noble Lords
Order!

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am in the hands of the House. I am not a Speaker of the House and I try to interpret as best I can the wishes of the House. We have had many discussions about the length of Question Time and there are many opportunities to put down Questions in this House—far greater opportunities, I believe, than there are in another place. But as was agreed yesterday—it was agreed when I spoke and when the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies, spoke—it is very necessary for the House to regulate itself and keep itself in order and I really think that we should move on to the next Question.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question, which stands in my name on the Order Paper, about a comprehensive test ban treaty.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the Government continue to seek a comprehensive test ban treaty. One of the principal difficulties identified in earlier negotiations was the question of verification and compliance. We therefore took an active part in bringing about the agreement to establish a working group in the Committee on Disarmament to examine these issues. We play a full part in the group's activities and in the work of the related Group of Scientific Experts.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Answer. During the previous Question, my noble friend asked the noble Lord whether he could be a little more specific. I wonder 821 whether I may put the same question now. Would the noble Lord he good enough to say what are the problems of verification and compliance which are holding up progress in the Geneva discussions?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I cannot reveal details of the confidential negotiations which took place in the working group of the Committee on Disarmament, but the technical problems of detecting and identifying explosions with an acceptable degree of confidence are, I think, well known. In addition, no satisfactory method exists for differentiation between nuclear explosions for military purposes and those for peaceful uses.

§ Lord Gladwyn
My Lords, has not the great advantage of any comprehensive test ban treaty always been that it would prevent scientists on both sides from inventing and developing ever more horrific and horrible nuclear weapons which are then almost immediately copied by the adversary, thus perpetuating a useless and frightfully expensive nuclear arms race?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, but one needs to be able to verify the process.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, will the noble Lord say why the position of the different powers on the question of verification is considered to be confidential? Are we not entitled to know what form of verification would be acceptable to the Government?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, because that is the basis on which the powers have entered into the discussions in the working group of the Committee on Disarmament.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether or not he agrees that verification has always held up any agreement leading to the abolition of nuclear weapons? Ought not, therefore, the Government to take a lead in calling a conference on the principles of verification and making known the results of such a conference?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, if I may reply to the last part of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, it appears that work on a comprehensive test ban treaty was not proceeding very fruitfully. There were discussions in Geneva as to what should be done. The United Kingdom undoubtedly played a very active part in the decision to set up a working group within the Committee on Disarmament to deal with this important and central question of verification from the point of view of a comprehensive test ban treaty. It is that work which is proceeding now.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that the announced decision of the United States to proceed with the development of the neutron bomb is not part of the trouble?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, if I may say so with respect. I think that that question is irrelevant.