Children's Hospitals (Hansard, 22 November 1982)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the board of governors of the Hospitals for Sick Children has recommended the closure of Tadworth Court Hospital and the transfer of its services to Queen Mary's Hospital, Carshalton, a few miles away. My honourable friend the Minister for Health is considering this proposal carefully, will be receiving representations, and will visit both hospitals before a final decision is made.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am most grateful for that Answer, which seems to indicate that there may be hope for both of these famous hospitals. Is the noble 715 Lord aware that throughout the length and breadth of the United Kingdom the only people who agree with the doing away of Tadworth Hospital are the governors and that the governors ought to be done away with, not the hospital? Is the noble Lord further aware of the perturbation revealed last week in this House, and throughout the country over the weekend, because of this threatened closure? Would the noble Lord be prepared to consider making strong representations to the Secretary of State on behalf of this House and on behalf of the many people who feel that we may possibly be about to commit an abominable crime against sick children? Will the Government stop it?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I think the noble Lord slightly exaggerates the position, but I will certainly undertake that the views of the noble Lord, and of your Lordships, are conveyed to my right honourable and honourable friends. However, the decision confronting my right honourable and honourable friends is a difficult one, and not quite so simple as perhaps the noble Lord imagines.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, while appreciating the difficulties, is it not a fact that if these children are moved to Queen Mary's Hospital there will have to be an extension at Queen Mary's and that the money which is now being spent at Tadworth will have to be spent at Queen Mary's? Surely the very close liaison between Great Ormond Street and Tadworth is very important. Secondly, may I ask the Minister to look again at the funding of a very special hospital like Great Ormond Street? It was in my constituency. I knew it well. Children went there from all over the country and, indeed, from all over the world. To try to fund it on a regional budget is not fair to the governors or to anybody else.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there is unused capacity at Queen Mary's, Carshalton. I have visited the hospital and seen some of the facilities there. As for the wider point which the noble Baroness makes about funding the operation of hospitals, which sometimes take their patients from all over the world, the Government are thinking about this problem.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware and will he say categorically to the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, that the governors of the Great Ormond Street Hospital have the interests of that hospital very greatly at heart and that it is not of their choice that they are being forced into the position of closing Tadworth Hospital?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Baroness is of course quite right. The governors are very responsible people. They have reached this decision in the face of what are undoubtedly great difficulties. The Government have to have their interests at heart, too.

§ Lotd Strabolgi
My Lords, if it is a question of money, are the Government aware that many people would be prepared to forgo tax cuts so that hospitals like this, and the Royal Marsden Hospital, could be kept in being?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there are very many demands upon the taxpayer. I am afraid that this is only one of them.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister could clear up one point. The people in charge of Tadworth, we are told, whose views have to be taken fully into account are the governors. It is the governors who are making this recommendation to the Minister. I am of the opinion that—

Several noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Molloy
Is the Minister aware that both I and thousands of other people are of the opinion that this matter would not have come to the Minister had this not been a recommendation of the governors? So the issue is their recommendation. There is no evidence of their fighting it.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord seems to think that the recommendation of the governors is totally without merit. I can assure him that that is not the case. There are many arguments in favour of what the governors propose. My right honourable and honourable friends will have to take all these matters into consideration.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, may I ask the Minister to take into consideration the fact that very valuable medical training takes place at postgraduate hospitals? Medical education is most important and spreads all over the country.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite correct. I believe she is thinking of the Royal Marsden Hospital about which she asked me the other day—and possibly of St. Mark's, of which she is also aware. I told the noble Baroness the other day about the position at the Royal Marsden. I think it was another of my noble friends who asked me about St. Mark's. There is a rumour abroad about St. Mark's being closed, but I know of no foundation for that rumour.