N. Ireland: Riot Control Equipment (Hansard, 26 May 1982)

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (The Earl of Gowrie)
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have noted the resolutions passed by the European Parliament about the use of plastic baton rounds. The security forces are subject to strict provisions of the law. They are required to use no more force than is reasonable in the circumstances, and the application of that principle to methods of riot control is under continuous review.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, and I am glad the matter is under continuous review. Nevertheless, is the noble Earl aware that the police in West Germany, Holland and Japan are finding that the modern water gun equipment is a highly effective, non-lethal method of dealing with street rioting of great ferocity? May I therefore ask him to give a commitment that research is being done by the Home Office with a view to the future implementation of such equipment in Northern Ireland?

The Earl of Cowrie
The difficulty, my Lords, is that the circumstances in which riots occur tend very often to be rather different in Northern Ireland from 1151 other parts of the world where you have a situation of civil demonstrations getting out of hand, if I may put it that way. We know that small groups of people, even small groups of children, can cause fatalities deliberately to the security forces. I would not wish, and I know the noble Baroness would not wish, that the security forces, who at the end of the day have to protect themselves, should be forced to use lead rather than plastic bullets which would result in considerably more loss of life. That said, we are continuously looking at improved methods of trying to deal with a hideous problem and we hope that the public in Northern Ireland, parents particularly, will help us with it.

§ Lord Kilmany
My Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask my noble friend for an assurance that the Government will by no means restrict the use of plastic bullets if the local commander regards their use as absolutely necessary?

The Earl of Cowrie
My Lords, as my original reply indicated, I am anxious to reassure my noble friend that that is absolutely the position.

§ Lord Blease
My Lords, would the Minister agree that apart from a few publicists and those propagating terrorism, there is widespread and genuine concern among parents, community leaders, the clergy and the security forces about the use of plastic bullets in riot and street disorder situations in Northern Ireland? Would the Government consider it helpful if the Northern Ireland Office or a Northern Ireland Government department arranged for a series of suitable consultations and meetings with local community leaders with a view to encouraging their active control over children in such riot and street disorder situations, so allowing the street and community leaders to take some responsibility in connection with the situation?

The Earl of Cowrie
I certainly welcome that suggestion, my Lords, and the security forces in Northern Ireland depend very heavily and, I would say, in general successfully, on the co-operation of local people in the Province. The fact is, however, that the security forces have very dangerous tasks to do and they cannot be disallowed from performing those tasks by rioting crowds, often organised cynically by terrorists. At the end of the day, as I say, they have to protect themselves in performing those tasks.

§ Viscount Brookeborough
My Lords, would my noble friend please extend the deepest sympathy of this House to the soldier in the Royal Anglian Regiment who was foully burnt by teenage petrol-throwing bombers two nights ago '? Is the Minister aware that no baton round was fired? If it had, perhaps the story might have been different. May I ask my noble friend to assure the House that many lives have in the past been saved by the use of baton rounds? While filled with admiration for our forces in the South Atlantic, may I ask him to see to it that the relatives of those forces in Northern Ireland receive the same cherishment of love as will be expressed to the relatives of those lost in the South Atlantic?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he has said and I shall indeed convey the sentiments of the House to the General Officer Commanding in Northern Ireland about the tragic incident to which my noble friend has referred. As I understand it, and without prejudice to the investigation of the case, the people involved might not have been even teenagers; they might have been "pre-teenagers", which is a very horrifying indication of what can happen. With regard to the situation in the South Atlantic, I do not think that it and the Northern Ireland situation are comparable. As I understand it, the terms of compensation and pension arrangements for service personnel are the same all over the services, but at the moment the public are showing their special interest in and support for the servicemen in the South Atlantic, which we all share. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence is therefore receiving such donations as the public are voluntarily giving in this respect to a special fund.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Minister, since the police are deeply involved in this matter, and are the principal targets of attack, whether it has ever occurred to the Government that the police force should be asked their opinion as to the type of weapon or means of defence that they might use in order to repulse attacks?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, for reminding the House that in Northern Ireland the police are very much in the front line of security efforts, with the Army principally in the position of backing up the police. It is the view of the police that in particularly dangerous circumstances the plastic baton round is the best form of protection for their personnel engaged in difficult tasks. That said, as I stated in my original Answer, the police and the Army are both subject absolutely to the requirements of the law, one of which is that the absolute minimum force should be used in all situations in Northern Ireland, however dangerous.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the decision of the European Parliament on this matter, as it is described in the Question, has no binding effect whatever?

The Earl of Gowrie
Yes, my Lords, I can confirm that.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, while I appreciate the appalling difficulties which face the security forces in seeking to deal with these most difficult situations that exists in Northern Ireland, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware of the figures which his right honourable friend the Secretary of State gave in answer to a Question in another place on 24th May? Details, which must be distressing to every noble Lord in the House, indicate that since 1975 a number of children under the age of 15 have been killed: a boy of 11; a little girl of 11; and then boys and girls of 10, 13 and 14. I appreciate that children of this age, who are not responsible for their own acts, may nevertheless be involved due to the influence of others, but is it 1153 not worth while to take account of the Question of my noble friend Lady Ewart-Biggs and at least look at alternative methods of crowd control, which might not have the appalling result that plastic bullets have?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, in my original Answer I stated, in response to the noble Baroness and to the House, that we are continuously reviewing all methods available to us, and the moment new methods appear, whether at home or abroad, we take very great care to research into their applicability in the Province. However, the fact remains that the security forces, often engaged in very dangerous tasks, can be the subject of sudden attack by small groups of people, or even small groups of children, and it is better that at the end of the day they should have at their disposal this weapon, rather than real bullets.

§ Lord Drumalbyn
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the incidents that were cited by the noble Lord opposite were incidents during the past seven years in which plastic bullets had been used?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, it is undeniable that plastic baton rounds have caused some deaths in the Province over the last seven years and we would not in any way seek to conceal that fact, which I very much regret. However, as my previous answer showed, all the indications are that on those occasions regrettably the security forces had to protect themselves and their tasks there would be far greater loss of life if the alternatives to baton rounds had been used.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, can the noble Earl say why there is not much greater use of water cannon? It does not hurt the people on the receiving end, but it does damage their dignity, and that is a good thing to do in these circumstances.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I rather share the noble Lord's appreciation of the virtues of water cannon. It is an admirable instrument when a riot is getting out of hand (if I may put it that way), but where there are very small groups of people, in highly charged situations, where they can manoeuvre, or be manoeuvred by others behind them, water cannon is a much less flexible and effective weapon. It takes a certain amount of time to get it into position, and I am afraid that I have to say that most of the circumstances where water cannon might reasonably be used are not the same as those in which plastic baton rounds are used.

§ Lord Sandys
My Lords, may I suggest that after the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has put his question, we should move on to the next Question?

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that I have one of these riot weapons and that I would be prohibited from bringing it, as a dangerous weapon, into this House? Would he not agree that if I threw it at the Benches opposite and it hit a Member, it might injure him seriously? Is it not the case that 11 people, including many children, have been killed by this weapon, which has the velocity of a gun?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the noble Lord's invective is quite sufficient weapon directed at a number of Members of your Lordships' House in successive Governments. Of course we very much regret the use of any weapon against crowds of people or individuals. The issue is whether this particular weapon, which I abominate, as I abominate all weapons, has not in fact saved more lives, since people must in the end be able to defend themselves and their tasks in what are very tense and difficult situations. I should like to add that I appeal to the people of Northern Ireland, and since the activities of very young people are on our minds at the moment, in particular to parents there, to try to control their children, who often join demonstrations as a matter of excitement, but who end up in very lethal positions indeed, and of course put themselves, as well as the security forces, at very great risk.