HL Deb 29 March 1982 vol 428 cc1151-3

2.42 p.m.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what consultations they are having with our EEC partners with a view to reaching agreement on a date for phasing out lead in petrol.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, in May last year the Government announced a reduction in the maximum permitted lead content of petrol from 0.4 to 0.15 grammes per litre to take effect by 31st December 1985. The Government chose this option as the quickest way in which to achieve the largest reduction in lead emissions. A European Community working party is, however, assessing the need and scope for, and consequences of, a reduction in polluting exhaust emissions from vehicles, including lead, and the United Kingdom is taking an active part in this study.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that very helpful Answer. Nevertheless, does he not agree that there is now unequivocal medical evidence of the highly detrimental effect which lead in petrol has on children's health? Will he not accept that, if the Government cannot persuade the EEC to change its directive on the lead content of petrol, the Government would be justified in taking action to set a date to remove lead from petrol in Britain, citing at the same time Article 26 of the Treaty of Rome in defence of their action?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am afraid I would not agree with the noble Baroness that the evidence is unequivocal. High levels of exposure to lead are certainly dangerous, but the working party on Lead and Health chaired by Professor Lawther reported that the evidence of harmful effects of low level exposure was not conclusive. More research work is in hand in a search for greater certainty, and, as a further indication of the Government's determination to tackle the problem root and branch, a wide range of measures is being taken to abate lead pollution from a variety of sources.

Lord Renton

My Lords, while not doubting my noble friend's and the Government's desire to eliminate lead in petrol when it is found to be a cause of damage to the human brain, would he bear in mind that there are far too many people in this country suffering from mental handicap for which the causes cannot be established, and, when there is a cause that seems likely to be established, will the Government please take it very seriously indeed?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, indeed I take note of my noble friend's remarks. It is important to reduce people's exposure to environmental lead as far as possible and as quickly as possible, and that is what the Government believe they are doing.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, at the time of the report by Professor Lawther to which he referred, the Conservation Society, of which I have the honour to be president, issued a counter report, entitled Lead or Health, in which it was clearly demonstrated that Lawther had failed to take into consideration some of the evidence which is available from the United States and Australia on the effects of exposure of children to low levels of lead in the environment, and that, since Lawther reported, new evidence had become available tending to the same conclusion, that the effects on children of small quantities of lead are extremely harmful and cause behavioural and intellectual disturbances which parents in this country are no longer prepared to tolerate.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, indeed we are aware of the various findings which have been produced more recently, but, as I said, further research work is in hand. The Medical Research Council and the Department of the Environment are both supporting specific studies on the effect on children of low-level exposure to lead. We still believe that the steps the Government took last May are the most apposite for us to take at the moment.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, may I ask the noble Minister which countries throughout the world now have lead-free petrol?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, indeed the noble Baroness may. The two I have in mind are the United States and Japan. I believe Australia also has it, and I think there is one other country. But if the noble Baroness wishes to draw from the fact that they have lead-free petrol that that is because of health hazards, she is, of course, wrong.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, does the noble Earl recall that in his Answer he gave the quantities in litres. Can we not have it in gallons? I apologise for being British.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord is quite able to translate it himself.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, the noble Earl said that it was not for health reasons that these countries had lead-free petrol. May I ask him for what reasons they do have it?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, it is because of the smog; the catalysts which are necessary in order to get rid of smog are no use when there is lead in petrol.

Lord Mowbray and Stourton

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that it is also true that having lead-free petrol means having very large engines which are very expensive in energy?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I do not think it means having larger engines, but it does mean considerable research, and this is one of the reasons why the Government took the steps they did in order to get the position of two-thirds less as soon as possible.

Lord Ardwick

My Lords, will the Government take into full account the strength of public opinion on this matter, which is overwhelmingly in favour of getting rid of lead in petrol?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, of course the Government are aware of the public pressure.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, the Minister said that the countries which have lead-free petrol have it in order to get rid of smog. May I ask him, is not smog harmful to health?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, indeed it has a health factor, but not, I think the noble Lord would agree, as lead has.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, as the noble Earl said in his original reply that the Government thought that the measures they were taking were the quickest way to deal with this matter, does not that show that there is some urgency and why did not the Government go further?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, in May of last year the Government embarked on a positive policy. I am sure that the noble Lord will remember the Statement made at the time, which set out what that was.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl one other point? Would he not agree that, unless our motor industry starts to think of manufacturing cars to run on lead-free petrol, they will become even less competitive with Japanese cars, designed to run on both kinds of petrol, which are selling massively all over Europe?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, the noble Baroness's original Question was about the European Community, and we do have to go in step with them. The research which I mentioned in my original reply to the noble Baroness underlines that point.