HL Deb 29 March 1982 vol 428 cc1150-1

2.34 p.m.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the market value, as estimated by the local authorities of the 171,400 council dwellings sold between 1st April 1979 and 30th September 1981.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)

My Lords, the department's estimate of the market value of the 171,400 council dwellings sold in England and Wales is £2,640 million.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask whether this does not mean that something like £1,900 million of public property has been made available to private individuals?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, one can look at it in that way if one wishes. One might also look at the fact that the people who have bought them now own their own homes, which many feel is a very desirable state.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, speaking as one who is greatly in favour of private ownership, is that sufficient reason for expecting my fellow ratepayers to subsidise ownership? When the Government's account comes finally to be reckoned, will not this very large amount of public property made over to private individuals be added together with the hundreds of millions of pounds worth of publicly-owned industry which has also been made available to private individuals at less than market value?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, when one talks of "market value" one really has to talk about historic costs. Market value is a notional figure which has no meaning until a sale is made. One has to look at the historic costs of these dwellings to really ascertain whether a profit or a loss has been made. That, surely, is a better way to assess the real performance.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that this marks a singular advance towards the attainment of a property-owning democracy?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, and I certainly do agree.

Lord Jacques

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that no one in private industry would ever be guided by historic costs? There has been inflation for years. How can the historic cost be of any importance when what matters is how much the property can be sold for at the present time?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I would hardly have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, would press the point about how much the property could have been sold for at the present time when it is the policy of the party opposite not to sell at all.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, is it not a fact that as a result of these sales there is no question of the ratepayer subsidising them? Ratepayers have now been relieved of sums of money, since the upkeep, painting and repair of these houses is now undertaken by private owners, who are very proud of their houses.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend and I certainly endorse his remarks.