§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their policy is to divert students into polytechnics rather than universities.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Elton)My Lords, in order to maintain academic standards and preserve the research capacity, the University Grants Committee has given universities guidance on student numbers. In so far as the non-university higher education sector has found itself able to increase intakes without lowering standards, this is welcome to Her Majesty's Government so long as it is consistent with resources available for awards.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, is the Minister aware that his reply will give some pleasure to the universities, but is he also aware that a feeling per-tains among the universities giving excellent technical scientific courses that the Government prefer to save money—and, indeed, the policy of the UGC reinforces this view—by diverting students into polytechnics; and will he give the House an assurance that the Government fully appreciate the wider educational scope available to students who are successful in getting into universities to take technical and scientific degrees?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, the Government are indeed aware of the importance of technological development and technological education. Indeed, the plans of the University Grants Committee for student target numbers envisage a positive move in favour of subjects related to technology and science.
§ Lord Wynne-JonesMy Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that there are two separate sectors of 644 higher education, and that unless both sectors are treated properly we shall not have a good higher education system? In particular, will he bear in mind that the main function of a university now is to advance knowledge, and unless it has the resources to do that it cannot possibly play its proper part? Will he also bear in mind that the polytechnics play an equally important part but that it is more than likely that in a country like ours, or, indeed, in any modern community, one has to put tremendous resources into the polytechnics? Will he bear in mind——
§ Lord Wynne-JonesWill the noble Lord bear in mind and not just look as though he were surprised that I am asking the question) that unless the polytechnics are given the money—and at the present time the pool has been capped, and therefore they have not been given the money like——
§ Lord Wynne-JonesMy Lords, will the noble Lord ensure that the polytechnics, with the universities, get proper resources?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I am tempted to say, yes, I will bear everything in mind that the noble Lord has said in so far as I can recall it. I think the salient points to which I should wish to reply in that contribution would be that the Government are in fact treating both sectors with a close degree of equality. The Government are aware of the necessity to preserve excellence in both. We already have the UGC for the university sector; and we now have the national advisory body for the advanced, further education sector. We are also aware of the importance of the advancement of knowledge in this country, and, in-deed, in the capacity to turn that knowledge into industrial progress as well as academic progress. Upon that necessity hinges the vital need to reduce unnecessary expenditure in this country on un-productive things and to get the best possible result for our money in the academic world, so that we can develop the industrial base which pays for everything, including academic progress.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, if the Government's purpose is to get the best possible value for money and at the same time, as the noble Lord the Minister said in answer to my noble friend, to encourage people to go in for technological and scientific education, may I ask him this question: Is it not wrong that the effect of the imposition of numbers limits on the universities has been to damage disproportionately some of the technologically based universities such as Aston and some of the faculties which are essential to the future of this country, such as the faculties of computing in universities like Cambridge and Kent, while at the same time allowing the student numbers in similar faculties to rise in the polytechnics?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, first I remind the noble Lord that almost every university has some aspect of 645 technological excellence to offer to its students. Secondly, I remind him of the terms of an earlier answer in which I put before your Lordships the actual effect of the UGC request for undergraduate targets of the universities which were formerly colleges of advanced technology. If the noble Lord will look at that, he will find that the areas he is most concerned with have been very fairly dealt with. In combination with the answer I gave the noble Lord a moment ago about the overall advance in numbers, in proportions of students attending technologically related subjects, I think he should be satisfied with the position.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, will the Minister agree that there will be a drop of 30,000 of advanced students by 1984–85 when we shall then have the lowest proportion of 18 year-olds in higher education for 18 years? Also, would it be possible for him to tell us, as the White Paper does not break down the figures, the numbers of university admissions and the number of admissions to the maintained sector? As I say, in the White Paper they are given altogether, and it would be interesting to know how they break down.
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I do not have a precise breakdown beyond the figures given in the White Paper. If it is available to me, I shall write to the noble Baroness about that, as indeed I will about her projection which I think is a little on the pessimistic side.