Spanish Health Service: British Pensioners (Hansard, 1 March 1982)

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Elton
Yes, my Lords, the Spanish authorities have increased payments due from British social security pensioners resident in the territory of Spain (including the Canary Islands) who have chosen to join the Spanish Health Service Scheme. The increase was from 1,982 pesetas per month in 1979 to 2,559 pesetas in 1980 and 4,331 pesetas in 1981. The ability of British pensioners to participate in the scheme derives from a protocol to the Convention on Social Security between the United Kingdom and Spain signed in 1974. The terms of the protocol, which is on health care, are not reciprocal but they do provide for British pensioners to pay at a rate fixed by the Spanish Government, which has discretion in this matter.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful for the information which the noble Lord has given, most of which is in my Question. May I ask whether there was any discussion at all about the size of this increase? Is it a fact that the Spanish pensioners resident in this country will also have to pay this amount of money each month—about £25 per month—in order to get health service care?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord asked whether I was aware, and I said I was; and he asked about the document under which this was done, and I replied. The matter has indeed been taken up with the Spanish authorities. They tell us that the increases are needed to meet rising costs and to bring the contributions nearer to those paid by those Spanish pensioners who have not made sufficient payments to their health scheme to qualify for free medical benefits. In fact those Spanish pensioners at present pay 360 pesetas a month more than do ours. As to Spanish nationals resident in the United Kingdom, they are of course beneficiaries under our health scheme without charge.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, in view of the final part of the noble Lord's answer, is not the bargaining power of Her Majesty's Government very considerable in this matter? Is it not possible for something to be done? May I also ask: what will be the position if Spain joins the European Community? Will there be complete reciprocity on these matters then?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, as to bargaining power, we have in fact achieved some progress. We have reached agreement with the Spanish authorities that separate contributions will not be required unless both husband and wife are entitled to separate social security pensions. This concession will cover not merely a wife without any pension entitlement in her own right, but also one with a pension which is less than her husband's.
As to the accession to the European Community, the European Community's social security regulations co-ordinate the member states' legislation on social security cash and health benefits. People who meet 1114 the social security conditions prescribed in the regulations, and who are insured in one member state but live in another, are entitled to receive benefits under the legislation of the member state in which they live as if they were insured there. These provisions will apply to Spain, when Spain joins the Community. This means that United Kingdom nationals who are in receipt of a United Kingdom state retirement pension, will be entitled to medical care under the Spanish health care scheme without contribution, on the same terms and conditions as those applying to insured Spanish nationals.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, but may I ask him one other question? Am Ito gather from his previous answer, when he said that some progress had been made in negotiations, that the negotiations are a continuing process and that he is still endeavouring to get some amelioration of this excessive charge?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I believe so. In what form I could not say. But I do not think that we are content with things as they are.