HL Deb 11 June 1982 vol 431 cc406-10

11.23 a.m.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will acknowledge the justice of the National Health Service nurses' wage claim and thus relieve them of the necessity of contemplating strike action.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, the Government have recognised the dedication and commitment of nurses and midwives by enabling a pay offer to be made which is 2.4 per cent. above the general NHS pay factor. We regret that this offer has now been rejected by the Staff Side of the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council, but that offer is still on the table.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I wish to thank the noble Lord the Minister for the courteous nature of his response to my Question, although I deplore its content. Is the noble Lord aware that, notwithstanding the offer, members of the Royal College of Nursing and of the Confederation of Health Service Employees will still be the lowest paid in public service? Is the noble Lord further aware that, in the view of the Royal College of Nursing and the Confederation of Health Service Employees, it is the Government's intention to destroy their solidarity and to impose humiliation? Would it not be better for the nation and for the organisations involved if the Government were to resort to a policy of conciliation?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, that the Government have no intention of trying to humiliate anybody. We have made the very best offer that we can in the circumstances. We have recognised the very special position of nurses and midwives by giving them a rather larger offer than it is possible to give to other workers, and also by declaring our determination to establish permanent machinery for determining nurses' pay in future.

Lord Wilson of Langside

My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister and the Government have it in mind for the future that, in the view of many, against the background of the nurses' claim, to accord to judges an increase in salary of 18 per cent. is consistent neither with commonsense nor with justice? Will he bear in mind for the future the need for recognition of the fact that this kind of thing encourages militants and discourages moderates?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the TSRB covers a very small number of senior staff. Its recommendations are for "catching up" awards from 1980 recommended levels, which could, perhaps, be analogous to the Clegg awards of 1979–80. Even after the recent TSRB award, the pay of those persons affected is at the very most only I42 per cent. above the level recommended for 1st April 1980. Since then, NHS staff have received increases nearer to 20 per cent.

Lord Morris

My Lords, in view of the supplementary question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside, is my noble friend aware that the pay of judges has never, in real terms, ever matched that set by the judicature Act of 1872?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, while my noble friend Lord Morris might be right, there have of course been a good many other changes since that time as well.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, while paying tribute to the work of ACAS, the move to call in the chairman of ACAS to try to resolve this matter by discussion is a pretty hopeless one? Would it not be far better if the Government agreed to arbitration? I am sure that the nurses' claim would be freely admitted. Is the Government's position here the same as when the teachers went to arbitration and secured an increase? Are the Government objecting to arbitration in this instance in case the nurses' justice is admitted?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, perhaps I should make it clear that Mr. Lowry has not been asked to solve this problem but rather to act as a line of communication in this matter between the Government and the TUC, to see whether he can determine what common ground may exist. The other matter which the noble Lord raised is, of course, an important one too.

Lord Wynne-Jones

My Lords, will the Government bear in mind that, although we all recognise the great devotion and hard work put in by nurses, for which we admire them, there is a further point—which is that they have a long period of training? They train for three, four or even five years and, during that period, they do not receive a training grant as a student would, but only low pay for the hard work they put in. Will the Government bear in mind that most of us in the community feel that we owe a very great debt to the nursing profession and that it is time we recognised that debt by making a substantial award to its members?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the Government certainly agree that the nurses occupy a very special place in the National Health Service. That is why we have offered rather more to the nurses on this occasion than we have to other workers in the same service, and why we have agreed to establish the special negotiating machinery to which I referred earlier. We hope that these special considerations will weigh with the other members of the service as well.

Lord Auckland

My Lords, while accepting that the offer to the nurses within the pay code policy is a reasonably generous one, may I ask whether my noble friend does not accept that the increased rents, increased laundry charges and increases in other charges, too, have largely swallowed up the pay increases? Will he bear that point in mind?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, only about 10 per cent. of nurses in the health service actually live in accommodation provided within the health service. Quite a wide range of nurses, student nurses, pupils and others enjoy discounts from the accommodation charges, and indeed those who live in substandard accommodation also have discounts. Furthermore, the charges are being introduced on a progressive basis and will not be fully in place until 1984.

Lord Davies of Leek

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us do not like to press the noble Lord the Minister, who we know is a kindly individual? But is he not aware that there is such a disparity between the attention we give to police force increases and the attention we give to the nurses, and I regard the nurses' service to the nation just as well? Is he not aware that now, with our young men in the services being damaged and wounded in the Falklands, we may have more need than ever for a well-trained nursing profession? Consequently, I think this contingency should he taken into account during the discussions.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as I have already said, the Government certainly accept that the nurses deserve, and indeed have received, special consideration in this matter; that is why we have made the provision to which I have already referred. But, at the end of the day, the cost of the health service can only be within what we can afford, and that is why arbitration, for example, is not a possibility open to us, because it is for the Government to decide what the nation can afford in the circumstances.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, does the noble Lord mean by that reply that if arbitration was carried out and the nurses got an increased pay award the money would have to come out of the health service, which is already strained financially too much at the present time?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I have to say that arbitration is not a possibility in these circumstances. The Government have, through the Whitley Council, made the best offer that can be made within the limits of the resources available. The noble Lord is quite right that if a larger offer had been made it would have had to come from within existing funds available to the health service.

The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Young)

My Lords, we have now had nine minutes on this Question, and there is other business to take today. I think we have covered this very fully. I do not in any way wish to stop noble Lords asking questions, but I think it really would be the wish of the House that we might now move on to the next business.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness the Leader of the House if I can have just one more minute to put a very vital point, not from my own point of view, but from the point of view of the nation and the feeling towards the nurses?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I do appreciate that the noble Lord feels very strongly about this matter. Could he ask one very short question—not make a point, but ask one short supplementary question?

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I will be as short as I can. With regard to the noble Minister's last answer, on refusing arbitration, will he now tell the House what happened to the Conservative Party's election pledge to permit free bargaining?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, in any situation of free bargaining, the employer, whoever he may be, whether the Government or some private company, has to decide the maximum sum he can afford in terms of wage increases. That is what is going on now. We have decided the maximum sum that is available for this purpose. Arbitration would only threaten that position, and perhaps suggest additional payments, but it would not say where those funds were to come from.