The Fishing Industry: Government Aid (Hansard, 26 January 1982)

§ The Earl of Kinnoull
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (The Earl of Mansfield)
My Lords, in the current financial year the full economic costs of the National Programme of Fisheries Research and Development for the United Kingdom are estimated to be £22.9 million, of which two-thirds is directly or partly related to the needs of the fish catching industry. The remaining third includes expenditure on the aquatic environment, fish cultivation and freshwater fisheries. In addition, 859 the Government have made more than £38 million of aid available directly to our fishing fleet this financial year.
It is not possible to give direct comparisons with the aid which is given in other member states. However, there is a report, which was compiled by officials and industry representatives and which was placed in the Library of the House in June of last year. This sets out the information which was then available.

§ The Earl of Kinnoull
My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's longish Answer. Would my noble friend accept that other members within the EEC definitely support their industries with such things as fuel subsidies? Would my noble friend consider a fuel subsidy to assist the industry? Can my noble friend confirm that of the very substantial funds that have been made available to the industry, for which I am sure the industry is grateful, at least half goes to one or other of Her Majesty's Government's agencies, or to administration, or to harbour works, and only half goes to the industry?

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, the rather long Answer to which my noble friend referred was in answer to a tripartite Question. Other countries in the European Community do indeed give national aid to their fleets. We do not claim to have comprehensive information on such aid and it is particularly difficult to make meaningful comparisons between different countries. That is because the fleets are differently constituted, differently sized, and Governments have different policies on aid to fishing which can be paid, as my noble friend illustrated, in different ways, such as regional grants, free harbour facilities and even sometimes aid towards fuel costs. Her Majesty's Government have set their face against making an artificial price for fuel, which is not confined to the fishing industry but applies to many other industries as well. The reply to the last part of my noble friend's supplementary questions is, no; the aid which we made available to help keep our fishing fleet stable was, for the most part, paid out to the skippers of the various boats involved.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the confidence of the British fishing industry has been badly shaken? Would he agree that one solution would be to ensure that the industry had a reasonable quota, a fair percentage, of total allowable catches? The industry has itself mentioned a figure of 45 per cent. Can the Minister say whether any progress is being made by Her Majesty's Government in obtaining a reasonable quota for our industry? May I further ask the noble Earl to say whether Her Majesty's Government see any future role for the distant water fleet of the British fishing industry?

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, the confidence of the fishing industry is not all one might hope for in the circumstances, because so much depends on the successful negotiation of a fair common fisheries policy which will provide an equitable means for the fishing industry of this country to fish, as I say, in 860 peace and profit, and it is to that end that the efforts of Her Majesty's Government have been directed during the last two wearisome years. We are indeed very conscious that it is only just that the British fishing industry—which operates in that part of the North Sea around our coast where a great deal of the immature fish come from—should have an equitable proportion of the fish and a fair share of fishing opportunity. This is what we have been striving to achieve in the negotiations.
The problems of the deep water part of the industry are of course rather different from those of the inshore part. They have been denied the fishing opportunity from places such as Iceland and the north coast of Norway. Those are different problems from those we face in relation to our Common Market partners, but the Government have certainly been conscious of their particular difficulties and have done their best to see that there has been a fair distribution of aid.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
Can the noble Earl comment on the progress of the negotiations, my Lords?

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, as the noble Lord will be well aware, one of the countries of the Nine with some particular interest in fishing has had a somewhat inconclusive general election, and there is no doubt that that has, as it were, brought the negotiations to a halt. Her Majesty's Government are working extremely hard at the moment both by bilateral negotiations with some of our other Community partners and by making representations both to the Commission and to the Belgians, who now hold the chair, and it is to be hoped that further negotiations at Council of Ministers level will recommence before very long.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, on the original question of research, may I ask my noble friend whether further experiments are being sponsored into the catching of species such as blue whiting and grenadier, which frequent deeper water than other stocks and which can be caught normally only by new methods and not the traditional methods of fishing?

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, continuous experimentation is going on in relation to these previously less than popular varieties of fish. In fairness to my noble friend, I should tell him that at present the research is slanted more to what to do with the fish once one has got it rather than to the catching of it.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is the noble Earl able to say what is being done about the marketing of the fish? I understand from fishermen that the costs are too high and the prices too low. The Minister of Agriculture is always talking about marketing and farming. May we be told how much of this money is being devoted to marketing fish?

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture set up a committee of his " wise people ", as they have been called, who produced a challenging and entertaining report on the marketing of fish in this country. Their recommendations have been considered both by the various 861 departments of Government and more especially by the new Sea Fish Industry Authority, which the Government have just set up to take over the functions which were formerly performed by the White Fish Authority and Herring Industry Board; and I know that the chairman of the authority is actively considering ways of improving the marketing of fish in this country.

§ Lord Harvey of Prestbury
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Britain has come off far worse than other EEC countries and that at the present rate of deterioration there will not be a British deep sea fishing industry unless something is done very soon?

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, I regard that view as unduly gloomy and unjustified.

§ Lord Parry
My Lords, will the Minister admit that the Welsh deep sea fishing industry was a classic example in that it was a classic case of over-fishing by foreign rivals with lower net mesh sizes which cleared the hake away from the traditional Welsh fishing grounds and led to the demise of the industry there?

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, the noble Lord reinforces the points about the conservation of fish stocks and the limitation of fishing opportunity which is accorded great priority by Her Majesty's Government. One of the few areas where there has been general agreement as between our partners in the European Community is that without a sensible and enforceable conservation régime there will be no fish left to catch.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, is not the real problem—

§ The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness Young)
My Lords, we have spent nearly nine minutes on this Question. I suggest that after we have heard the noble Lord, Lord Paget, it will be time to move on to the next business.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, is not the real problem with the fishing industry that it is far too efficient and that its efficiency has practically eliminated the fish, so that our energies should be exercised towards obtaining international agreement to reduce that efficiency?

§ The Earl of Mansfield
In a philosophical manner of speaking, my Lords, I think the noble Lord is right; the modern fishing boat, with all the electronic methods and aids available to the skipper, is a totally different craft from those of only 10 or 15 years ago. I agree with the noble Lord to that extent, but it comes back to the point that we must have a sensible conservation régime, that it must be properly enforced, and that we must have an allocation of quotas and access which will prevent these over-efficient boats from taking more than their share.