The Spurstowe Terrace Assessment Centre (Hansard, 24 February 1982)

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. 934 In so doing, may I point out that where it reads "Springfield Terrace", it should read "Spurstowe Terrace"?

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Elton)
My Lords, the Spurstowe Terrace Regional Assessment Centre is not yet in full operation but I am informed by the London Borough of Hackney that the cost of maintaining each girl accommodated there is likely to be in the region of £875 per week.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer, which works out at about ten times the cost of keeping a girl at the most expensive girls' school. Can my noble friend tell the House the proportion of cost attributed to salaries and employer's contributions and the proportion which is likely to contribute to central administration; that is, staff recruiting, training and so on?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, as to the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, 55 per cent. of the estimated charge represents staff salaries and wages. A high staffing ratio is necessary in order to care for difficult and disturbed adolescents; 14 per cent. represents running costs; 5 per cent. represents administrative charges; a further 23 per cent. represents loan charges. These are particular to a newly-built home. Discounting these charges, the running costs for Spurstowe Terrace are very much in line with similar establishments in London.

§ Lord Wells-Pestell
My Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to tell the House what is the staff ratio? Is it 2:1, 3:1, or what?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I was there yesterday morning, but I regret that the number escapes me. It is around the norm; it is not exceptionally high. It may be as well to remind the House that this home is not simply for delinquent young people but also for young people in the care of the local authority who are in a very disturbed state, who are in danger of exploitation or incest, who have been abandoned by their families, who are disturbed and disruptive, although not delinquent and whose disturbance may manifest itself in suicidal tendencies. As to how much it is proper to spend on such cases, that is for consideration. In my view, it is not unreasonable to spend at least a little more on those who have reached such extremities of misfortune than on the generality of young people who are better placed in life. If we save their lives or keep them out of prison or borstal, the money is well spent.

§ Lord Kaldor
My Lords, would it not be more economical to send these Hackney girls to a type of institution like the Cheltenham Ladies' College?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that I would leave the governors and principal of Cheltenham Ladies' College to answer that supplementary question.

§ Baroness Platt of Writtle
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend if full advantage is being taken of such newer trends as intermediate treatment or a fostering unit such as that which has recently opened in Essex which might allow some girls—and I realise they are difficult girls—to have the opportunity of a proper family life and to have more chance to succeed, and which might be more economical'?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, there is a place for fostering and for intermediate treatment, for family therapy and for other types of provision for disturbed or delinquent children. These facilities are directed towards children who cannot be catered for within that system. I should like to take the opportunity of saying that the borough takes advantage of a good relationship with voluntary agencies who also provide a range of facilities; but there are some people in a desperate plight who must be put into accommodation. The more recent accommodation carries a heavy debt charge; and that is why the London Children's Regional Planning Committee operates a pooling system whereby the charge to authorities placing a child there will be only £400 a week—because it is averaged out over the whole range of provisions.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is it not a contravention of this House to ask Questions about matters that fall within the province of the local authorities? If it is now permissible for noble Lords to put Questions to Ministers, and to require answers about details of local authority expenditure in this manner, will there be an amendment to the Standing Orders so that we all know precisely where we stand on the matter?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, while I take the drift of the noble Lord's question, I think it is perhaps misdirected. The Question is directed at an establishment of which the whole of the cost originally was subject to loan sanction from central Government and on which a proportion is subject to 100 per cent. grant. I am referring to the secure accommodation within it. I have taken the opportunity—and I hope your Lordships will forgive me for so doing—of trying to throw a little light on the general problem faced by all authorities over which this Government presides, and to show that what is being done is not quite so "scatter cash"as people would sometimes think it was.

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us believe that the distress, the psychological and mental disturbance of many of these young people, like these girls at this school, is one of the factors of the society in which we live, and therefore none of us object to Government expenditure in trying to restore these poor creatures to a modern kind of life where they can live as decent citizens in society? Finally, would he realise that this gang of kiddies eight and nine years old are creatures of the circumstances of this world today, and money spent on restoring these people is money well spent?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. At the same time, I should say that my noble friend is quite right to see that the money is properly spent and it is a proper Question to ask.

§ The Earl of Onslow
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of us have been very impressed by the obvious feeling that he has given to his Answer? But it seems very odd when he said—

Several noble Lords
"Is the noble Lord aware?"

§ The Earl of Onslow
When he said £120 a week is spent on looking after these children, excluding staff fees, it does seem a very high—

Several noble Lords
Order!

§ The Earl of Onslow
If the noble Lord reads my question in Hansard he will find that there is a question mark at the end of it. My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister not aware that some of us find £120 a week per person, excluding staff fees, is a very high amount to be spent? Nobody is querying—is he not aware?—that the care is quite right and absolutely correct, but is the administration as sound as the care?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am now placed in the difficulty that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, pointed out. My impression from a visit, from reading the papers connected with the case, seeing some of the children in the classroom there and talking to the staff is that the work is invaluable. It is not merely assessment but also treatment. It will benefit society. Also, my impression is that the local authority is very well aware of the shortage of resources and of the need to administer its functions as efficiently and cheaply as possible.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, would the Minister not agree that it is very sad that these children should be as they are at this age? Should we not look at our preventive services and help these children at a much earlier age so that this situation does not arise in adolescence?

§ Lord Elton
Indeed, my Lords; and we are so doing.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, will my noble friend answer one more question? Will he explain the anomaly that apparently exists when this centre is being opened and at least one other is being closed, and that the places available have been apparently under-used throughout the past year to the extent of 51 places being taken up when 97 places are available?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the overall provision is, notwithstanding what the noble Lord has said, below what is regarded as the level of need. Individual institutions may fall out-of-date and need replacement. If all of them were to operate at 100 per cent. occupancy, there would be no accommodation at all for the emergency cases which so frequently characterise the work being done by the people in the institutions.