§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Lord Monk BrettonMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the operation of the manufacturing advisory service of the Department of Industry.
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, the manufacturing advisory service for small and medium sized engineering firms has been operating for four and a half years. Over this period Her Majesty's Government have been very satisfied with the operation and achievements of the service. Its continuation for a further four years from 1982 was recently announced.
§ Lord Monk BrettonMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. May I ask him for a few figures. First, what is the present size of the establishment of the service? What is its current annual gross cost and its net cost after recovery of consultancy fees? I should also like to ask: What attempts have been made to estimate the benefit of the service, and by whom?
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, the manufacturing advisory service is operated on behalf of the Department of Industry by the Production Engineering Research Association. Five PERA staff are employed full-time on MAS and there are about 20 retired industrialists working part-time to introduce the service. The expenditure on MAS is about £3 million a year. I think I have answered all my noble friend's questions.
§ Lord Davies of LeekMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the figures that I was given, that some 2,000 small firms have been helped by this organisation, which was established in 1977, and that some £90 million has thereby been saved or helped along through this small businesses organisation? Will the noble Lord tell me whether this organisation, whose work from Melton Mowbray is increasing, will be now kept in being? Finally, as a crack, I see that one of its scientific helps for small firms is tribology, which is the friction of moving things on surfaces, giving luminescence but not very illuminating.
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, I confirm the figures that the noble Lord has mentioned. During the course of the time that MAS has been operating, the cost has been about £9 million and the benefits are understood to be between £80 million and £90 million.
Lord InglewoodMy Lords, could my noble friend tell us approximately what is a "small firm" and what is a "medium sized firm" under consideration here?
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, I do not think I need tell the noble Lord what a small firm is; but the 938 firms which apply for this service are employees of from 60 to 1,000 people.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the true role of the production engineer in the United Kingdom is not as well appreciated as it is on the Continent? Will he seek all possible means to promote the use of production engineers, not merely within the limited sphere envisaged in the Question but also by larger firms as well?
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, I shall certainly pass on the noble Lord's continents to my right honourable friend. Very good work is done by this service. I understand that 94 per cent. of the 2,600 firms that have used the service are fairly satisfied and 75 per cent. are well satisfied.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, can my noble friend say what is the proportion of the gross cost which is recovered in consultancy fees?
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, to quote my noble friend Lord Cockfield, "it does not work that way". What happens in this case is that the applicant can get 15 man days' free service. After that, he can get another 15 man days' service. The applicant will pay half the cost and the other cost will be subsidised.
Earl De La WarrMy Lords, can my noble friend say what criteria are used, if any, to check that an applicant company is admissible for this assistance, in view of the fact that, as he has said, it is subsidised by the Government?
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, I do not think I can say that. So far as I know, this subsidised service is available to all engineering companies whose employees number from 60 to 1,000.
§ Lord ReillyMy Lords, if this MAS is offered free of cost to small firms, may I ask why the Design Council's design advisory service is charged for? In other words, is the product not as important as its production?
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord: I could not quite hear what he said.
§ Lord ReillyMy Lords, may I say that the Design Council's design advisory service, as the Minister will be aware, is also a dependency of the Department of Industry? Why is that service charged for whereas the manufacturing advisory service is not charged for?
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, I wish I could answer the noble Lord, but I am afraid I cannot.
§ Lord GridleyMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he can confirm that in 1980–81 870 companies were visited by the advisory service and 700 projects where advice was given were completed?
§ Lord Cullen of AshbourneMy Lords, the noble Lord has sonic figures which I do not have; I am sorry.