HL Deb 07 December 1982 vol 437 cc116-7

2.56 p.m.

Baroness Phillips

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to take following the 18th Report of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board (Cmnd. 8752).

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)

My Lords, if the noble Baroness's concern is, as I suppose, with sentencing practice, I can tell her that Her Majesty's Government acknowledge the public concern that can arise from some sentences which appear excessively lenient. It is for courts alone, however, to determine the proper sentence in individual cases within the limits set by Parliament and under the guidance given on appeals.

Baroness Phillips

My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Lord the Minister for that reply. He was correct in assuming that this was the angle of the report which concerned me. Bearing in mind that his right honourable friend in another place occasionally makes suggestions to magistrates (I will say no more than that), would the noble Lord be agreeable to asking his right honourable friend to put to magistrates and judges the proposition that people are concerned about the lenient sentences which are at the moment dealt out to people who commit violent crimes?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I will of course ask my right honourable friend to read the remarks which the noble Baroness has made, which may attract some sympathy. I would like to emphasise that in this country we do not have political courts, and politicians do not tell the courts what sentences to pass. The proper sentence is the sentence chosen by the court, which has heard both the evidence and any statement in mitigation—and the advice of the Lord Chief Justice. That advice was that for most robberies and offences involving serious violence, medium and long-term custodial sentences were the most appropriate. I believe that chimes in with what the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, would wish my right honourable friend to say.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, is it not the case that the guidance which the noble Lord the Minister said was given by the Lord Chief Justice is in fact being followed by the courts, and that the usual sentence in mugging cases—or "glassing" cases, which I believe is the fashionable term for public house offences—now tends to be between 18 months and three years? Is the noble Lord aware that in a recent case the Court of Appeal upheld a sentence of two and a half years passed on a girl mugger who was 20 or 21 years of age?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, is right in that the generality of sentences do not attract public concern. It is only occasional cases, in which very often the public is not aware of all the facts, on which public concern is concentrated.

Lord Hooson

My Lords, is it any part of the remit of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board to pass comments on the sentencing practice in this country? Do the Government invite these comments to be passed? Is it right that these comments should be passed in a report in a generalised way, without the precise circumstances of the cases to which they refer being known?

Lord Elton

My Lords, in that the board is the only body which has a purview of all the cases in the whole of Great Britain, its view must be of interest, and I believe that the board should be allowed to express it.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, is it not a problem that the present accommodation is wholly inadequate even to deal with the number of prisoners resulting from this so-called lenient policy, and accommodation is simply not available for any heavy stepping up of sentences, even if it was desirable?

Lord Elton

My Lords, it is the desire of the Government, which I have often voiced during the debates on what is now the Criminal Justice Act, that sentences should be appropriate to cases. I think there is no difference between us that some people should have long sentences; there are others who should have shorter sentences, and by providing alternatives to custody we make more room for those who ought to be in prison.

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