HL Deb 06 December 1982 vol 437 cc9-11

2.57 p.m.

Lord Merrivale

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will outline the various alternative ways, also carefully studied by the Gibraltar Government, by which they propose to fulfil their obligation to support Gibraltar's economy; and whether they will quantify over a reasonable period of time the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary work which will be undertaken by the naval dockyard with a view to bringing about a measure of confidence to the people of Gibraltar, bearing in mind that no final decisions about commercialisation are to be taken until discussions, between officials of both Governments and A. & P. Appledore International Ltd., and consultations with other parties directly concerned, have been completed.

The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Viscount Trenchard)

My Lords, if it is decided to establish a commercial dockyard in Gibraltar, Her Majesty's Government would be prepared to transfer the necessary land and assets to the Gibraltar Government free of charge, to provide funds to cover essential refurbishment and re-equipment and certain other initial costs. We are also in touch with the Gibralter Government about their revised request for development aid submitted in September and we hope to make an announcement soon.

As the noble Lord clearly recognises, the amount of naval work to be undertaken by the commercialised dockyard is a matter for discussion. Our officials will again be meeting those of the Gibraltar Government and with A. & P. Appledore International later this month. I would expect this matter to be considered further on that occasion; but final decisions may take longer to reach.

Lord Merrivale

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his Answer. May I ask him whether or not he agrees that many see the short-term outlook for Gibraltar as very pessimistic, while the long-term outlook is viewed by some with only qualified optimism? Could the Minister therefore indicate, to a greater extent than he has so far, the amount of refit work which will be undertaken over a period of years—if he could indicate the years it would be useful—on Royal Fleet auxiliaries and on mine hunter refits? Could the Minister also say whether, from now on, any work will be undertaken on Leander class frigates?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, first let me say to my noble friend that the changes will be phased according to the negotiations which are taking place. Thus it is very much in the mind of Her Majesty's Government to ensure that the workload covers the interim period, which may be prolonged, while the plans for commercialisation of the dockyard take shape. In the end, we believe that those plans may well be able to make a very substancial contribution to the future economy of Gibraltar and to the viability of the dockyard. It is, in the main, the Royal Fleet auxiliaries, and the work appertaining to them that we shall keep in Gibraltar, which will provide a relatively large load in the interim.

Lord Blyton

My Lords, is the noble Viscount the Minister aware that in considering Gibraltar and the refitting of ships in Gibraltar, he ought to remember the River Tyne, where 26 per cent. are unemployed, where five shipyards have been closed down, and which cannot get any naval contracts?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, I note the noble Lord's points and his sentiments. In a changing situation there was, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, no possibility, if we were to keep the maximum expenditure on front line units for the Royal Navy, of maintaining the huge dockyard structure that we had for Royal Navy work. We do believe, however, that the commercial alternatives, of which A. & P. Appledore International's has been chosen as the most likely, may well provide a viable future in present circumstances for the important Gibraltar dockyard.

Lord Vernon

My Lords, now that the dust of the Falklands war has begun to settle, is it not time that Her Majesty's Government took a rather more positive view towards the long term future of Gibraltar, in conjunction with the Spanish Government, than they have hitherto done?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, the noble Lord must await the White Paper on the Falklands for any changes of emphasis that may seem desirable from that. But the Gibraltar base will be retained, just as Portsmouth base is retained. Bases are quite different from dockyard support, and unnecessary expenditure on the tail and administration of our fleet is not a help to maintaining the most effective fleet that we can.

Baroness Vickers

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister about the workers and the Moroccans in the dockyard? How many of those people may lose their jobs? Will they receive redundancy pay, and will my noble friend assure them that they will not be replaced by Spaniards, because they came in and did a very good job when the Spaniards' trouble began?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, let me assure my noble friend Lady Vickers that Gibraltar dockyard workers, for all the purposes of redundancy, are United Kingdom citizens, and they are fully entitled to their redundancy pay. Let me then say that at this stage, with discussions currently going on with officials which will be continued this month and next, it is far too early to know the quantity of redundancies, either in the middle term or longer term; I have already covered in my Answer to my noble friend Lord Merrivale the question of the shorter term.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, after all the postponements which have occurred, can the noble Viscount tell the House what prospects there are now, under the new Spanish Government, of implementing the Lisbon Agreement of 1980? As the noble Viscount will be aware, there were great expectations that something could be done because this would greatly improve the climate of opinion as between our two countries. Perhaps the noble Viscount can say whether any progress is now likely?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition will recognise that although this is an overlapping subject to a high degree, it is a separate subject. We very much hope that the Lisbon Agreement, which was unfortunately held up during the Falklands operation, will be implemented by the new Spanish Government. It is too early for me to say anything definite as to when they will do so.

Baroness Vickers

My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend will say something about the Moroccans, about whom I particularly asked, because they are not United Kingdom citizens? Will they receive redundancy pay?

Viscount Trenchard

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Vickers invariably asks me something which I have to promise her a letter to answer; on this occasion, that it is!