HL Deb 22 October 1981 vol 424 cc844-6
Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, I rise to ask the Government a question on business of which I have already given notice concerning the business on Tuesday, 27th October, on which day your Lordships will notice that we are due to consider the Commons amendments to the Companies Bill. My principal question is to ask the Chief Whip or the Leader of the House what further facilities they propose to offer your Lordships in order that these matters may be properly discussed.

When the Companies Bill started in this House, there were 62 clauses. By the time it left this House, there were 75 clauses. By the time it left the Standing Committee in another place, there were 79 clauses and, by the time it was completed, there were 126 clauses. On Report in another place, some 13 entirely new clauses were introduced and some very substantial amendments were made to clauses already incorporated in the Bill in Committee and by your Lordships' House. In total, your Lordships will be invited to consider some 242 amendments to the Companies Bill, which is due to come before your Lordships' House on Tuesday.

I am given to understand from the Vote Office that the amendments will be not available to your Lordships until tomorrow, which leaves us Saturday, Sunday and Monday to consider the implications of the various amendments that have been made. I submit that this is entirely unreasonable. The Companies Bill in this House received the detailed attention of your Lordships from all sides of the House, and I think that it is generally agreed that the Bill went out from this place a good deal better than it came in. It is for consideration as to whether consideration by your Lordships of this Bill should be postponed, because even to collate the amendments in with the Bill as it originally left the Report stage in the Commons would take an enormous amount of physical endeavour. There has been no opportunity whatever for having any consultation with outside bodies. There is a vitally important clause in the Bill concerning the right of a company to purchase its own shares. It is quite impossible to give detailed consideration to even that clause without knowing the taxation implications, and the Board of Inland Revenue only last week issued a consultative document on which it required replies within three weeks.

It is quite clear to us that it is not really right that this House should be put under such pressure without having adequate opportunity to consider all the implications of the extremely important clauses that the Government have now incorporated in the Bill in another place. I sincerely hope that we shall not receive a dusty answer from the Chief Whip on this matter. This is not a party Bill. No vast party passions are aroused by it, but it is the pride of this House that, when a Bill comes to us, we do give it detailed examination in conformity with our traditions as a revising Chamber.

Nobody wishes to obstruct the will of the Government to carry through their Bills, because to do so would raise a vital constitutional question. Nobody, for example, would dream of seeking to reject it on Third Reading. However, I submit that we have the right in this House—all of us, on all Benches—to be treated properly. I make no complaint about the Chief Whip's Office in this place, who, I must say, consistent with the stresses to which they have been put, have given me at least 48 hours' advance notice of certain matters, and, for that and for their cooperation and courtesy, I am much obliged.

What I complain about is the attitude of the Government on top. I sincerely hope that the noble Lord will be able to give further consideration to this matter, otherwise I shall have no alternative but to raise it once again when we have the Motion before your Lordships to consider the amendments coming from the Commons.

Lord Denham

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, not only for giving me notice that he would raise this point—albeit rather short notice, though I make no complaint about that—but also for what he said about my office. I assure him that the answer which I shall give him I shall try not to make dusty. I shall not try to belittle the difficulties that your Lordships are very often under, but I think that, on reflection, the noble Lord will agree—and I have not had a great deal of time to go into precedents—that such timetables are not unprecedented. Indeed, I never fail to be amazed at the fortitude and dignity with which your Lordships conduct your business under conditions inflicted upon them by successive Administrations. I think I am right in saying that a considerable number of these amendments that are coming back from the Commons were tabled in response to representations, not least from this House when we considered the Bill earlier this year. Of course, I shall look at what the noble Lord has said, but, in the first instance, I think it is probably better that this matter should be discussed through the usual channels.

Viscount Simon

My Lords, when a situation such as this arises, as has sometimes happened in the past, is it not possible to consider moving a Motion analogous to the Motion which the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees will shortly be moving on the private Cumbria Bill, which will enable consideration of that Bill to be carried on in the next Session? I have never understood why it is not possible to do that when a situation such as this arises at the tail-end of a Session.

Lord Denham

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Viscount for that suggestion. I am absolutely certain that it is not possible. As to the exact reasons why it is not possible, I shall require a little notice. However, certainly special arrangements were made some years ago so that this could happen in respect of Private Bills—I recall this, as will the noble Viscount—but it certainly cannot happen in respect of Public Bills.

Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe

My Lords, I entirely understand the difficulties in which the noble Lord finds himself, but if the usual channels communicate about this—as, of course, they must—the House will know nothing until Tuesday because we shall not be meeting again until then. All Whips go out today and I think that the House may be in some difficulty about not knowing what will happen on Tuesday.

Lord Denham

My Lords, that is right, but perhaps the usual channels could meet rather earlier and make sure that at least their deliberations start before the Whips go out. There have been precedents for this. As I say, I have not had a great deal of time to look them up, but I know that in 1976 over 150 amendments to the Energy and Weights and Measures Bills were brought from the Commons and agreed in one day after very late arrival. If one looks into it one will see that it has been done before. However, it is rather difficult to carry on this discussion across the Table; and perhaps I could have a word with the noble Baroness through the usual channels later.