§ 2.53 p.m.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on their attitude towards the closed shop policies of the Sandwell and Walsall district councils; whether they regard the disciplinary action that has been taken against Miss Joanna Harris and her colleagues in Sandwell and Mrs. Joan Cooper and her colleagues at Walsall as being lawful; and if not whether the Secretary of State for Employment and the Secretary of State for the Environment 1384 propose to warn the local authorities concerned that their members are putting themselves at risk of being surcharged by the district auditor.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment (The Earl of Gowrie)My Lords, the Government have strongly condemned Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council's disgraceful closed shop policy and affirmed their support for those whose jobs have been threatened. From reports, it appears that Walsall Council may be behaving in a similar manner in relation to their employees, and if this should be the case the Government would be equally forthright in condemning Walsall Council's policy.
It is clear that Sandwell Council are deliberately infringing the statutory rights of their employees under the Employment Act 1980. In such a case, it is open to anyone to raise the matter with the district auditor who may decide to investigate and the result could well be a court order holding individual councillors responsible to repay the expenditure from their own resources.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, in thanking the Minister for that reply and hoping that his reply will get a great deal of publicity, particularly in the areas of the two local authorities concerned, may I invite him to ask the Secretary of State for the Environment formally to warn the local authorities concerned of what is contemplated? Does he not agree that what is contemplated in the case of both these local authorities is a disgraceful attack upon the civil liberties of these women, who are taking up a position under immense pressure from their employers? In this situation, is it not right that the members of the local authorities should be formally warned by the Government, that the Government themselves will draw these matters to the attention of the district auditor, because only in those circumstances is it likely that they will, in fact, avoid dismissing these women who, then, will have only claims for compensation?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, the Government, as my Answer implied, have made their disapproval and condemnation quite unconditional. The remedy which the noble Lord postulates is, of course, available to the people concerned as a result of the Government's own legislation.
§ Lord RochesterMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that recent events at Sandwell have made it more difficult for those of us who, while deploring the illiberalism of closed shops, have opposed their immediate abolition on practical grounds, and that we find it increasingly difficult to maintain that position in the light of such events?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, those who abuse the law inevitably put pressure on legislators of all political complexions to up the ante and strengthen the law. There are, of course, dangers in this kind of escalation. The necessity is that laws be put on the statute book not simply as a result of parliamentary majorities, but overall public consent.
§ Lord Lee of NewtonMy Lords, does the noble Earl find it passing strange that there should have been such huge publicity around these two issues, while all the hundreds of people who have been dismissed for joining trade unions have passed without comment?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I do not think it is strange, in view of our history. We are an intensely litigious country, zealous about civil liberties and we have a very active press.
§ Lord Taylor of GryfeMy Lords, would the noble Earl say whether the ruling of the European Commission on Human Rights in the British Rail employees' case has any relevance to this case?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, even as I talk a previous closed shop case is being heard in Europe. Therefore, I do not think it would be proper for me to make any comment upon it at the moment.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, is it correct to say that this is an intensely litigious country? I do not think we are, unfortunately for lawyers, and I hope that not too much encouragement to litigation will be given in the House, bearing in mind the gross pressures on the courts to deal with such litigation as already exists.
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord and his colleagues are under such pressure and doing so badly.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, may I ask the Minister this final question: If the Minister argues, as I understand he does, that what the local authorities here are doing is unlawful, why does the Secretary of State for the Environment not formally warn members of the local authorities concerned that he will draw these matters to the attention of the district auditor?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I have to confess that I do not know the answer to that, except to say that the Government collectively have made their view perfectly clear. Furthermore, I am not a lawyer myself, but I do not know whether it would be proper for the Government, as it were, to bring an action of that kind.