HL Deb 01 December 1981 vol 425 cc926-8

2.42 p.m.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are prepared to offer any assistance towards the transport problems of Central Africa and, in particular, of Zambia.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, we already provide a lot of assistance to Central Africa in the transport field. In the specific case of Zambia, we part fund the costs of some 60 British experts who work for the Government of Zambia in the transport sector, and are considering meeting the capital costs of a rail bridge over the Kafue River.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that as a result of the actions taken by the illegal régime in Rhodesia during the Rhodesian war there are still bridges and roads destroyed, which are handicapping the development of the transport system of the whole of Central Africa? Is he further aware that the Zambian people themselves have taxed themselves specifically to assist in the repair of this infrastructure? Would he agree that the British Government have a very special responsibility, in view of their responsibilities in Rhodesia at that time, to assist in the restoration of what was destroyed by the illegal régime?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I appreciate that there are tremendous transport difficulties in Zambia as, indeed, there are in southern Africa as a whole—which is why we welcomed the southern African development co-ordination conference and why we have pledged money in this direction; but I am not convinced that the extra pressure is put upon us as a result of the illegality of the former régime in Zimbabwe.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, were we not informed during the days of the illegal régime that all the problems of Zambia's transport were going to be solved by the benevolence of the communists who were building a splendid road, bridges and a railway from Dar-es-Salaam? What has happened to it?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I do not think that we were told quite as much as the noble Lord would lead us to expect from his supplementary question. However, it is true that the Chinese offered tremendous aid and assistance, both technical and monetary, in building a railway between Tanzania and Zimbabwe. I know that both these countries have managed to reschedule their debts in this connection, but I cannot tell the noble Lord the details of such.

Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many of the donor countries even from the EEC have not yet fulfilled the pledges that they made about aiding transport in Central Africa? Is he further aware that this is short-sighted since we need the minerals, if nothing else, from Central Africa, and without transport we shall not get them?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, I was aware of that. This is something which is currently under discussion during our presidency of the EEC. The point that is sometimes missed in all this is that, although as the noble Baroness has said the aid was promised, quite a lot of this is rescheduling of existing bilateral aid.

Lord Balfour of Inchrye

My Lords, would the Minister say whether the help that we are giving in transport to Zimbabwe covers also the development of internal civil aviation in that country?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lord, I regret that I shall have to write on that subject to the noble Lord. I have no information on that point.

Lord Hawke

My Lords, as there is a great shortage of rolling stock in southern Africa generally and in this country we are desperately short of jobs using steel, would Her Majesty's Government consider priming the pump by placing orders for locomotives in this country and hiring them out to those other countries, basing the rent on the price of copper?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, this is something that we could look at; but I do not think that it is practicable under current legislation because aid, by the direction of Parliament, must be given directly to the Governments concerned.

Lord Taylor of Gryfe

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there have been excellent crops in Zimbabwe this year, particularly of maize, but they are unable to transport these food supplies to other parts of Africa because of the collapse of the transport system? Would he regard efficient transport in the area as a top priority in any aid programme he proposes to support?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords. Eleven years ago I was a volunteer in Zambia where I was advising on the growing of tropical fruit and vegetables. Transport was then one of the major problems and I understand from my advisers that it is so still; and it is one of the things which gets priority.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, while welcoming what the noble Lord has said regarding the co-ordination committee of central African and African countries in southern Africa, may I ask whether an essential priority in securing that economic co-operation is aid to the transport system? Further, in view of the fact that bridges and roads were destroyed by the illegal Government in rebellion against our Government, have not we a special responsibility to rehabilitate the transport system there?

Lord Skelmersdale

No, my Lords. I have already tried to explain that I do not hold that view.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will consider a practical suggestion which follows on the point regarding locomotives made by the noble Lord opposite? Would he consider not building new locomotives but providing the technical expertise to repair the steam locomotives which are still there in Zambia? Their use could drastically and constructively cut the oil bill if they were substituted for the present diesel engines. The locomotives are there—

Noble Lords

Order!

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness Young)

My Lords, the House has been very patient with the noble Lord. I should be glad if he would ask his question briefly and not put in so many supplementaries.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, I am trying to explain the background of my question. The steam locomotives are there. They were made in Doncaster and Manchester—

Noble Lords

Order!

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, will the noble Lord consider the possibility of making a contribution by sending experts from this country in order to put these locomotives back into use?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, as always, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will consider any suggestion which comes from your Lordships' House.