HL Deb 01 December 1981 vol 425 cc929-30

2.51 p.m.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider taking steps to reorganise the emergency services into a single unit comprising the police, firemen, and ambulancemen.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, responding to an emergency call is a vital part of the role of the police, fire and ambulance services. The Government have the highest regard for the work that they do. But the demands made of each service in responding to emergencies and to their other responsibilities are quite different and call for different professional skills in which each service is trained. The important thing is that these services should work together wherever necessary and the Government are satisfied that there is close co-operation between them.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply. May I ask him whether he is aware that under the heading of what we understand as an emergency, a riot, a fire, civil disobedience sometimes resulting in the need for the use of the police, the fire services and the ambulances, the situation has changed? Expertise has been increased among all three arms, and ought there not now to be consideration in view of the changes I have adumbrated over the past few years of more co-ordination among the three arms of this very vital service? This would show that we care for the magnificent work that the noble Lord has said that they are doing. I approve of this and give full praise. I hope that I can do something to help them in their request for further co-ordination.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, in the case of the types of emergencies that the noble Lord mentioned in his supplementary question, the police would be responsible for initial co-ordination. The fire service, in addition to its fire-fighting and fire prevention responsibilities, undertakes what is called special services, and ambulancemen are an essential part of the emergency services, although their work is part of the work of the National Health Service. Thus I agree with the noble Lord that the work of these three services is interrelated on many occasions, although they remain under separate organisation.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether something like this is already being done in connection with civil defence? If that is so, what is the difficulty in organising it?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, there is indeed initial co-ordination in civil defence in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, suggests. But still the services remain separately organised with separate skills and separate functions.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this? In so far as he has acknowledged the work of these three arms of the emergency services—and I am most grateful that he has done so—would he be prepared, please, to ask the Government whether they would now consider one element that is causing some form of irritation; namely, that the ambulance staffs fall behind their colleagues in the police and fire services with regard to remuneration?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, with the best will in the world towards the ambulancemen, it is part of the separate organisations that matters of pay and conditions of service are also separately negotiated.

Lord Inglewood

My Lords, could my noble friend confirm that he disagrees wholeheartedly with the efforts of many of the political friends of the noble Lord opposite who has asked the Question that civil defence expenditure and effort should be run down?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, the expenditure on civil defence has been increased by the present Government. I believe very deeply that that is the right policy.

Lord Inglewood

It has been reduced in some counties!

Baroness Robson of Kiddington

My Lords, may I ask whether the Minister would consider suggesting to Her Majesty the Queen that we should institute an ambulance medal on the same lines as a police medal for long, meritorious service?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I think that that interesting suggestion from the noble Baroness goes a little wide of the original Question.