HL Deb 15 May 1980 vol 409 cc365-8

3.17 p.m.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many water authorities have provided water meters in domestic houses and how many are contemplating doing so in the future.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, domestic consumers in the Malvern area already have water meters in their homes, and elsewhere there are some domestic consumers, who for special reasons, receive a measured water supply.

This year, the Anglian and Welsh Water Authorities are extending their optional metering scheme for non-domestic consumers to domestic consumers on the same terms. From 1st April 1981, the Welsh Water Authority propose to introduce a specific metering scheme for their domestic consumers. Severn-Trent Water Authority may introduce a scheme in April 1983.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Does he not think it much fairer to have meters, because there are some houses which have a washing machine, a dishwashing machine and five bathrooms, whereas a neighbour's house may have just one bathroom, and yet the occupants are charged the same water rates? Furthermore, I know of a case of a small shop in Pewsey which has no water at all but a standpipe outside which is not even fitted, and yet the owners have to pay water rates.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I take my noble friend's point. Water rates are calculated at the moment on a rateable value basis and, of course, that basically hurts the owners of higher rated buildings. I agree that it is hard on people who do not have a water supply. Nevertheless, having said all that, as I have on previous occasions, water and the removal of sewage is still one of the cheapest services in the country. The average household still pays only £1 a week.

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, following on the last remark of the noble Lord about the service being cheap, I wonder whether he can give me—if not now, perhaps later—an estimate of the cost of installing meters, and also the cost of the meter reading service, and, having regard to the Government's pledges to cut down public expenditure, tell me how many extra officials would be involved? As water is a highly capital intensive industry, would he not agree that the high interest rates are keeping the costs even higher? If this proposal is followed through, with separate meters in separate houses, would he not also agree that it could be a tax on low-income, large families and, in fact, be a disincentive to using water which is important for public health reasons?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, in the context of high interest rates, I am not quite clear what the noble Baroness is talking about.

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, perhaps I could explain. As the cost of providing reservoirs and anything to do with water is extremely expensive, the high interest rates which we have at the moment make those costs even higher. The point I was trying to make is that the Government would be better advised to reduce interest rates than to put meters in every home, which will prove outrageously expensive.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, the Government are dedicated to reducing the high rates of interesteventually they will come down when inflation comes down. To turn to the more immediate point of the cost of meters, the exercise of assessing the cost of metering everybody was last done in 1976 and the cost then was between £650 million and £950 million. That figure is now out of date. The Anglian and Welsh Water Authorities, which are giving people the option of having meters in the near future, propose to charge approximately £70 per household to instal a meter. There is no suggestion of compulsion as regards the metering schemeit will be an optional scheme, if people think that they are being charged too much.

Lord DAVIES of PENRHYS

My Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that as a result of those people who can afford £70 having a meter installed and who will presumably reduce their use of water, those who cannot afford a meter will have to pay a higher water rate?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, no, I am not sure that that follows. Let me take the example of a large building with a very high rateable value. The building might have few people living in itit might have just the odd washbasins and lavatories for shoppers, passers-by or what have you, but that would not reflect in the rateable value. The cost of a £70 meter and a standing charge would be of much better value to the owner of that place than if he were to retain the present system. The object is to give people a choice of whichever system they think will suit them best.

The Earl of ONSLOW

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that when metered water charges were introduced in the United States there was a saving of up to 40 per cent. of water use? But even assuming that in this country there would be a saving of up to 15 per cent. of water use—as is shown in the experiments that have been carried out, including the one at Malvern—that will not have enormous capital costs and high interest rates incurred in building new reservoirs.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, we are an ever-increasing consumer of water. It is not good enough to pretend that by saving 15 per cent., all parts of the country will not need new reservoirs. I take the noble Earl's point. Obviously, when one has to pay for something, one looks rather more closely at whether the tap is running or the lawn needs watering. But each water authority is its own master in these matters and it has to pay its costs itself. We do not subsidise it. Each water authority can make its own charges.

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that water authorities are becoming increasingly arrogant and powerful, and that we could save a great deal of water in this country if the Government encouraged re-cycling policies?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, the water authorities are there to supply water to us, the public. If we waste water, we are the naughty ones. The water authorities cannot be blamed for the public wasting water.