HL Deb 15 May 1980 vol 409 cc362-4

3.13 p.m.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government on what date the objections to British Airways' flying Concorde on the London-Melbourne route were finally clearedand how soon the service will start.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, the Australian Government stated in May 1976 that they had given approval for Concorde to begin regular services to Australia. It is for British Airways to determine when such services should begin, but certain supersonic overflight clearances would be required.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, is it not a fact that the overflying clearances have now been acquired and, if not, could they be applied for? Moreover, will my noble friend remember that the judgment of British Airways is not always perfect about the popularity of aircraft, as it was with the VC10, which it more or less condemned but which was highly profitable? Is he aware that Concorde is now making an operating profit because it is so popular with executive travellers and the like? Ought we not to run the present Concorde trial service—Bahrein to Singapore—on to Australia to see whether it is popular with the travelling public?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, it is not the case that all the necessary overflight permissions are available. Indeed, there are good reasons why one should not necessarily seek those sort of rights long in advance of when they might be required. While it is true to say that Concorde is operating very satsifactorily on the North Atlantic, I understand that the commercial results on the Singapore route are, so far, not quite so good.

The Earl of KIMBERLEY

My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that one of the overflight countries is Saudi Arabia, which has now refused permission as a result of that unfortunate television film?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, there are discussions going on with Saudi Arabians on that point at the moment. I hope that my noble friend will not press me.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord is able to answer this question now or perhaps later. However, can he tell us anything about the progress of negotiations on supersonic overflight clearances between us and Malaysia and India? Are those negotiations progressing, or are they at a standstill?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, we have overflight permission as regards Malaysia and, indeed, we are operating through Malaysian airspace into Singapore at present. We do not have supersonic overflying rights as regards India and the aircraft, therefore, routes round the South of the Indian peninsular on its way to Singapore.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, and with the indulgence of the House may I ask whether the rather difficult point of difference between Malaysia and Singapore has now been resolved?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, obviously I cannot speak for relations between Singapore and Malaysia, but I would assume so from that.

Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE

My Lords, do the Government anticipate any trouble in getting what are termed "third" freedom rights from Singapore to Australia? If they have trouble in getting them, will they make it clear when the Australian service starts that such rights do not exist but we wish that they did exist?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I think that my noble friend is referring to what are called "fifth" freedom rights in this context. Fifth freedom rights would not be essential for the operation of this service, but they would clearly be highly desirable.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us how the operating profits, of which the noble Lord has told us, compare with the commercial losses which the company tell us they suffer from operating Concorde?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I am advised that the losses made between January 1976 and March 1979 totalled rather more than £;30 million, after making appropriate provision for depreciation. However, we do not yet have the results for 1979–80.

The Earl of KINNOULL

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether it is British Airways which has to apply for the overflight agreements or whether, in fact, Her Majesty's Government negotiate?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, the negotiation of overflight rights would be a matter for Her Majesty's Government.